Danish GP Vojens Saturday 14th September

[Fromafar]

41 minutes ago, IainB said:

The scoring system needs to be fan/viewer friendly first and foremost. You shouldn't have to need to have a laptop in front of you to know what the hell is going on. 

My 4 year old Grandson could have told have told Kelvin without a laptop.😂🤔

[IainB]

10 minutes ago, andout said:

F1 has been doing this for a million years (well maybe not a million), a little bit different maybe as Speedway goes to sixteen places but I don't hear any complaints from F1 fans 'cos that's the way it is. This wasn't that difficult, true Kelvin and Chris had no bloody idea but that is lack of preparation on their part.....the difference was 17 points, BZ needed to make it a 21 difference. Doesn't really take a brain surgeon just someone feeding the two commentators of what is happening. OR preparation. Um-Er....I don't know!!

F1 doesn't have 2 semis and a final, you know exactly where you are and what is required, there were just too many permutations going into the semis again and it'll be the same while this scoring system continues

[IainB]

12 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

He was not “gifted” any of his World Titles.Sour Grapes for some reason.IMO. You seem to think the others are not really bothered.Like he says he just likes racing his bike.

He doesn’t set the rules or who competes or the venues, he just beats who turns up.

Seems to be a genuine nice guy.

Perhaps gifted was a bit OTT but it was certainly heavily weighted in his favour and I said he can only beat what was is put in front of him and surely you can't argue that he's not up against the 15 best riders in the world... or even 14, 13 or 12...

[Fromafar]

Just now, IainB said:

Perhaps gifted was a bit OTT but it was certainly heavily weighted in his favour and I said he can only beat what was is put in front of him and surely you can't argue that he's not up against the 15 best riders in the world... or even 14, 13 or 12...

World Finals never have been the best 16 riders in the World though.Nothing Different.

[Mr. Clemens]

9 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

World Finals never have been the best 16 riders in the World though.Nothing Different.

 

But in those days everyone got a chance of getting to the world final not the 'select few'

 

 

[IainB]

9 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

World Finals never have been the best 16 riders in the World though.Nothing Different.

Can't remember any genuine World title contenders not being allowed to ride in World Finals

[andout]

22 minutes ago, IainB said:

F1 doesn't have 2 semis and a final, you know exactly where you are and what is required, there were just too many permutations going into the semis again and it'll be the same while this scoring system continues

OK, so you have shot down everything but still not come up with a way that you like.....So what is it?

[IainB]

5 minutes ago, andout said:

OK, so you have shot down everything but still not come up with a way that you like.....So what is it?

Cumulative race points... simples, everybody knows what's going on at all times. 

I know what you're going to say the winning GP rider may not get the most points, that never really bothered me in the grand scheme of things. But for those that it does just award 21 race points for winning a GP and race points for everybody else. Bottom line is it MUST be understandable to the general viewing public

Edited September 14 by IainB

[norbold]

39 minutes ago, andout said:

F1 has been doing this for a million years (well maybe not a million), a little bit different maybe as Speedway goes to sixteen places but I don't hear any complaints from F1 fans 'cos that's the way it is. This wasn't that difficult, true Kelvin and Chris had no bloody idea but that is lack of preparation on their part.....the difference was 17 points, BZ needed to make it a 21 difference. Doesn't really take a brain surgeon just someone feeding the two commentators of what is happening. OR preparation. Um-Er....I don't know!!

F1 is not the same though is it? Each Grand Prix is just one race. How else would you score it? There are 23 races in each speedway Grand Prix and riders accumulate points in each race as they go along. I think most feel that riders should be rewarded for the points they actually score throughout the meeting. In theory (or maybe it has even happened) a rider can win every race up to and including the semi-final, giving him 18 points and then come last in the final, giving him a total of 14, whereas another rider can get to the final with 10 points, then come third and come away with 16 points. So that five second places beats six wins over the evening.

Edit: Sorry, crossed with the last two comments, but I agree with IainB.

Edited September 14 by norbold

[BluPanther]

2 minutes ago, IainB said:

Cumulative race points... simples, everybody knows what's going on at all times

100% Correct...

[IainB]

9 hours ago, norbold said:

F1 is not the same though is it? Each Grand Prix is just one race. How else would you score it? There are 23 races in each speedway Grand Prix and riders accumulate points in each race as they go along. I think most feel that riders should be rewarded for the points they actually score throughout the meeting. In theory (or maybe it has even happened) a rider can win every race up to and including the semi-final, giving him 18 points and then come last in the final, giving him a total of 14, whereas another rider can get to the final with 10 points, then come third and come away with 16 points. So that five second places beats six wins over the evening.

They could get to a final with as little as 9 race points and walk away with 20! Crazy!!

Current system also means a rider can coast through  a GP and just turn it on at the end. We've gone from the most ruthless knock out system, which personally was my favourite, to cumulative points, which was probably fairer and still allowed for a bad ride here and there to this current system which makes no sense for a heat system with semis and a final

Edited September 15 by IainB

[IainB]

45 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

My 4 year old Grandson could have told have told Kelvin without a laptop.😂🤔

Well, I'm glad that somebody knew what was going on... can you fix him up with a BSF account for next year? 

[andout]

36 minutes ago, IainB said:

They could get to a final with as little as 9 race points and walk away with 20! Crazy!!

Current system also means a rider can coast through  a GP and just turn it on at the end. We've gone from the most titles knock out system, which personally was my favourite, to cumulative points, which was probably fairer and still allowed for a bad ride here and there to this current system which makes no sense for a heat system with semis and a final

So, what is your perfect system?

Anyone, I won't pick on IanB here.....but what is the perfect system? OR even what would you be happy with?

Edited September 14 by andout

[Noelinho]

5 hours ago, tomhaines said:

Will someone please tell Kelvin that Lebedevs is NOT from Riga! Such an unprofessional commentator 

If literally anyone could pronounce his first name that would also be progress...

[IainB]

30 minutes ago, andout said:

So, what is your perfect system?

Anyone, I won't pick on IanB here.....but what is the perfect system? OR even what would you be happy with?

The only way the current scoring system works is if you have all 16 riders in one 95 lap race, which could be interesting with pitstops etc, or you go back to the A, B, C & D Finals.  It can never work with the 2 semis and a final system as has been proven by the utter chaos every year since it's inception where the only 2 people on the planet who knows what's going on are @racers and royalsand @Fromafar's 4 year old child genius grandson 

... and we'll have to go through all this again in a couple of weeks to decide the final medal positions and the top 6 qualifiers for next year. 

Edited September 14 by IainB

[bloom89]

1 hour ago, IainB said:

Perhaps gifted was a bit OTT but it was certainly heavily weighted in his favour and I said he can only beat what was is put in front of him and surely you can't argue that he's not up against the 15 best riders in the world... or even 14, 13 or 12...

So apart from Emil and laguta who would you have in the series? The rest of the gp field are mainly made up of riders from the top league in Poland which would suggest the best riders in the world. He can only beat what is infront of him and he’s the most consistent of them all by a mile. Totally deserves his titles imo.

On a side note well done Robert Lambert on his first gp win hopefully he’ll have many more to come. 

[andout]

12 minutes ago, IainB said:

The only way the current scoring system works is if you have all 16 riders in one 95 lap race, which could be interesting with pitstops etc, or you go back to the A, B, C & D Finals.  It can never work with the 2 semis and a final system as has been proven by the utter chaos every year since it's inception where the only 2 people on the planet who knows what's going on are @racers and royalsand @Fromafar's 4 year old grandson 

😄😁 OK so I actually thought about that one before you sent it......and NO you are absolutely correct it cannot work perfectly with any semi's or Final but it seems everyone, well maybe the Eurosport and FIM want to see a Final....I'm still not convinced the hard core fan cares about a final....frankly in my day it was most points wins and have a real runoff if you are tied. However, I think we are stuck with Semi's and Final.........the current way is only confusing when a rider, in this case BZ, wins the crown before the final event.......seems Kelvin and company have a problem working out a 20 and 17 point difference.......Kelvin started to say third for BZ, but that was one short.....AND AGAIN they should be prepared and have ALL the answers before the meeting!

And yes I did like the A, B, C & D finals.......and I like this one too.....as someone said the "cream" always rises to the top and the winner is usually the one who should win.....in this case BZ.

[IainB]

7 hours ago, bloom89 said:

So apart from Emil and laguta who would you have in the series? The rest of the gp field are mainly made up of riders from the top league in Poland which would suggest the best riders in the world. He can only beat what is infront of him and he’s the most consistent of them all by a mile. Totally deserves his titles imo.

On a side note well done Robert Lambert on his first gp win hopefully he’ll have many more to come. 

It's not all about winning GP's though as Bartosz has proven, it's about beating the riders around you, with the inclusion of the likes of Huckenbeck, Kvech & the exclusion of Laguta and Sayfutdinov it's easier to pick up points, so when you currently scrape into the semis on 7, 8 or 9 points and then go on to make the final with the higher quality rider you don't make those semis let alone finals.

As I keep on saying BZ is clearly the best rider of his generation but he certainly ain't the GoAT that some like to think. 

Edited September 15 by IainB

[IainB]

8 hours ago, andout said:

😄😁 OK so I actually thought about that one before you sent it......and NO you are absolutely correct it cannot work perfectly with any semi's or Final but it seems everyone, well maybe the Eurosport and FIM want to see a Final....I'm still not convinced the hard core fan cares about a final....frankly in my day it was most points wins and have a real runoff if you are tied. However, I think we are stuck with Semi's and Final.........the current way is only confusing when a rider, in this case BZ, wins the crown before the final event.......seems Kelvin and company have a problem working out a 20 and 17 point difference.......Kelvin started to say third for BZ, but that was one short.....AND AGAIN they should be prepared and have ALL the answers before the meeting!

And yes I did like the A, B, C & D finals.......and I like this one too.....as someone said the "cream" always rises to the top and the winner is usually the one who should win.....in this case BZ.

Yes, no arguments from me about the winner and I quite like the 2 semis and a final. It's just the scoring is too complicated for the layman. To be fair last night was one of the easier scenarios but still way too complicated, you shouldn't have to sit there with a chart saying, well if he scores 2 points in this then he gets 18 points but if the other guy gets 3 points then he gets 20 points and there's only 20 points available in the next GP if he scores 7, 8 or 9 points next time out that could score him 8-20 points, but not guaranteed to... it's utter madness!

And then there's the factoring in of who gets what points for finishing 3rd and 4th in the semis... that's the nightmare scenario when it comes down to deciding meaningful positions. 

In 2022 nobody knew Magic was 3rd in the world until after the race and the captions came up... and they're not always the most reliable of things to base the placings on. 

I don't really mind too much what the scoring system is, all the riders know the rules at the start of the season but it must be easy to understand for the punter... I want to sit there on my sofa chowing down on Doritos with a glass of Jack in my hand and be able to understand what the hell is going on not trying to work out some unfathomable Sudoku puzzle 

Edited September 15 by IainB

[racers and royals]

1 hour ago, IainB said:

Yes, no arguments from me about the winner and I quite like the 2 semis and a final. It's just the scoring is too complicated for the layman. To be fair last night was one of the easier scenarios but still way too complicated, you shouldn't have to sit there with a chart saying, well if he scores 2 points in this then he gets 18 points but if the other guy gets 3 points then he gets 20 points and there's only 20 points available in the next GP if he scores 7, 8 or 9 points next time out that could score him 8-20 points, but not guaranteed to... it's utter madness!

And then there's the factoring in of who gets what points for finishing 3rd and 4th in the semis... that's the nightmare scenario when it comes down to deciding meaningful positions. 

In 2022 nobody knew Magic was 3rd in the world until after the race and the captions came up... and they're not always the most reliable of things to base the placings on. 

I don't really mind too much what the scoring system is, all the riders know the rules at the start of the season but it must be easy to understand for the pointer... I want to sit there on my sofa chowing down on Doritos with a glass of Jack in my hand and be able to understand what the hell is going on not trying to work out some unfathomable Sudoku puzzle 

To be fair the graphics have been spot on for several Gp’s now. I don’t see anything wrong with the scoring system in use currently( apart from 1 thing). If one fills a programme in after heat 20 it only takes a couple of minutes max to allocate positions 9 to 16 and determine who is in which semi and order of choice( ingrained in my memory is 1,4,6,7 and 2,3,5,8 lol). Working out who gets 12,11,10 and 9 points is also not rocket science, it’s just based on the finishing position after 20 heats.

my main concern is how Michelsen in Riga was robbed of a point for last place  to a reserve(Gusts) who failed to score a point. I have made a suggestion to the FIM that meeting reserves points are only considered in the meeting points classification if they actually score a race point( or more).