Amalgamation:- Premier/ Championship Leagues 2025 & Onwards

[rearingtogo]

12 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

But can that be accomplished with clashes of race nights, unavailability of stadiums and riders ?

The current top table don't appear to want to change anything other than a draw not being a draw .

Is there any wonder why it’s turning out to be dying sport. It’s a crazy world we live in.

[heathen52]

1 hour ago, rearingtogo said:

Is there any wonder why it’s turning out to be dying sport. It’s a crazy world we live in.

It's not only the Sport that's dying it's us fans as well, and there are very few new fans replacing us old farts that are keeping it going, when this generation has gone then so will the Sport in the UK, but the powers that be can't/won't refuse to see it.

[ONTWOMINUTES]

8 minutes ago, heathen52 said:

It's not only the Sport that's dying it's us fans as well, and there are very few new fans replacing us old farts that are keeping it going, when this generation has gone then so will the Sport in the UK, but the powers that be can't/won't refuse to see it.

Exactly right  , speedway as a sport is on borrowed time.

[rearingtogo]

It’s on its Knees heading to be flat on its face.

[WeymouthPirate]

Ah, the one big league debate. We know it won’t happen, but it’s always fun to chat about.

 

My view (for what it’s worth), is that I think it would be a good thing for British Speedway. A reset almost. I’m convinced we should’ve done it in 2022 after the pandemic, but I’m not the decision maker (probably for the best). 

 

A 16 team (I’ll give Greg Palmer credit for keeping Mildenhalls name alive) + a NDL for ‘reserve sides’, so a 30 fixture season + KO Cup, Play Offs, Riders & Pairs championship. Sounds good right? 

 

PROS

Fixture Variability 

We’re all sick of seeing the same away side 3/4 times a year. With 16 teams, you’ll be lucky to see a side twice during one season

 

Own Racenight

Every club has its traditional racenight (Belle Vue on Fridays for example). I know Poole won’t move up because of the drastic drop in attendances on non Wednesday meetings. Clubs would be allowed to ride on a night that suits then

 

Reduced Costs

For some clubs anyway. The Premiership clubs would see a drop in costs as they won’t have to pay out for the big stars.

 

But here’s why I think/fairly certain I won’t happen

 

CONS

Rider Shortage & Standard 

There’s not really enough riders around the world who would wanna do it. And those who would are probably not at the standard we’d like. We’d lose all the GP/world class riders as there’s no way they’d plan a season around a British schedule.

 

Losing the race nights 

We currently have priority on Mondays and Thursdays (providing there’s no Polish rain offs), if clubs run on their own night, the FIM could take those priorities away

 

Riders Not Wanting It

As well as the GP riders going, those who currently double up (Lawson, Worrall, King, Bomber etc) would be up in arms. Their income would be drastically reduced and there’s no amount of guest bookings that would cover that

 

Promoters not wanting it 

The top Premiership clubs promoters (Belle Vue, Sheffield and Ipswich) would hate it. They only want the top stars riding and this would put an end to that. The other Prem clubs may be more in favour but it’s those big 3 that I think would against it, and they hold weight at the table

 

I’m sure there’s more on both sides of the argument. And I’m more sure if any of my rant actually makes sense. I’m still a little drunk after last night and am writing this as the Mrs drives us home after Cardiff 

[IainB]

1 hour ago, rearingtogo said:

It’s on its Knees heading to be flat on its face.

It's on its knees being done up the backside, by whom you decide. Poland, the riders, the FIM, themselves?

[Fromafar]

On 8/17/2024 at 6:24 PM, rearingtogo said:

If Poland always rule, the sport in this country is well and truly shafted. Whatever it takes we have to be able to run totally independent. Speedway racing can still be entertaining without top riders.

Poland rule because of their forward thinking concerning Speedway in the last 20 years.GB have just sat saying give them anything the fans will turn up.One League in GB is long gone should have happened at least 10 years ago.No up and coming rider of any talent is going to hang about over hear.Britain is just pocket many to any rider that is have decent,Poland is their aim. Speedway can be entertaining without Top riders but not at the present admission prices,and that’s unlikely to change.Fans are paying to much for average riders to maintain their 3 bikes and fancy vans with their name on the side.

[ONTWOMINUTES]

16 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Poland rule because of their forward thinking concerning Speedway in the last 20 years.GB have just sat saying give them anything the fans will turn up.One League in GB is long gone should have happened at least 10 years ago.No up and coming rider of any talent is going to hang about over hear.Britain is just pocket many to any rider that is have decent,Poland is their aim. Speedway can be entertaining without Top riders but not at the present admission prices,and that’s unlikely to change.Fans are paying to much for average riders to maintain their 3 bikes and fancy vans with their name on the side.

It's a £10 at max sport at club level and always has been, riders demands have pushed this up over the years.

[IainB]

1 hour ago, Fromafar said:

Poland rule because of their forward thinking concerning Speedway

Yes that, but I believe that Polish Speedway has also been heavily subsidised over the years from Local Government etc. Whether that be directly or indirectly through land ownership and stadium development. I could be wrong as my knowledge of Polish Speedway is not encyclopedic but from just what I've picked up on here. UK on the other hand have been at the mercy of ineffectual government at the hands of money grabbing land developers.

Edited August 19 by iainb

[IainB]

While not immediately obvious, as I've said before, I think there are many similarities between Speedway and Cricket!

Cricket, at the county level, was on its arse a few years ago with only "social misfits" (Bob Willis's words, not mine) attending, blighted by weather, blighted by an international calendar that often took the best players away along with many other leagues, IPL (Poland, in Speedway terms) and CPL, The Big Bash etc.

Look at it now!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/c5y8qwyk8dwo

No doubt the misfits probably hate it but it enables them to continue to go to the County Championship sat on their own with their dogs.

Edited August 19 by iainb

[ch958]

5 hours ago, ONTWOMINUTES said:

It's a £10 at max sport at club level and always has been, riders demands have pushed this up over the years.

there was an almighty row on here when I said that 2/3 years ago.

My basic argument was the price of admission has to be at market level, in competition with cinema, non league football, etc and not the other way around.

If you can get a product (an evenings entertainment) at 10/12 pds, why wd you pay 20/22 unless you are a die hard.

It would, of course mean a drastic cut in costs, my first suggestion wd be machinery. Back to basics for the British leagues

[ch958]

1 minute ago, ch958 said:

there was an almighty row on here when I said that 2/3 years ago.

My basic argument was the price of admission has to be at market level, in competition with cinema, non league football, etc and not the other way around.

If you can get a product (an evenings entertainment) at 10/12 pds, why wd you pay 20/22 unless you are a die hard.

You literally can't argue with the market

It would, of course mean a drastic cut in costs, my first suggestion wd be machinery. Back to basics for the British leagues

 

[enotian]

7 hours ago, iainb said:

While not immediately obvious, as I've said before, I think there are many similarities between Speedway and Cricket!

Cricket, at the county level, was on its arse a few years ago with only "social misfits" (Bob Willis's words, not mine) attending, blighted by weather, blighted by an international calendar that often took the best players away along with many other leagues, IPL (Poland, in Speedway terms) and CPL, The Big Bash etc.

Look at it now!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/c5y8qwyk8dwo

No doubt the misfits probably hate it but it enables them to continue to go to the County Championship sat on their own with their dogs.

Cricket is a canny analogy. They've basically dumbed it down for a dumbed down society. Nobody is interested in strategy or technique or any of the other 'interesting' facets of the long form.

The people just want wickets and boundaries which signal pyro and catchy chorus', the chance to drink and sing Neil Diamond.

Just like they get when two blokes chuck arrows at a board.

The problem is, if that's what you want, how do you give them it? It's not 15 minutes action over 2 plus hours that's for sure.

[IainB]

45 minutes ago, enotian said:

Cricket is a canny analogy. They've basically dumbed it down for a dumbed down society. Nobody is interested in strategy or technique or any of the other 'interesting' facets of the long form.

The people just want wickets and boundaries which signal pyro and catchy chorus', the chance to drink and sing Neil Diamond.

Just like they get when two blokes chuck arrows at a board.

The problem is, if that's what you want, how do you give them it? It's not 15 minutes action over 2 plus hours that's for sure.

That's exactly what I'm getting at, Speedway needs serious surgery to attract today's society that are willing to part with their cash... the programme board and sew on patch brigade ain't going to like that but it might be a price they have to pay to see the sport continue successfully. Tinker about with rules, points limits, tactical's all you like, won't make a jot of difference... it will never happen of course

Edited August 19 by iainb

[enotian]

I think the current promoters think if they can provide the same format as the Polish League then the crowds will return like they do in Poland. Just a couple of vital missing ingredients. Tracks, facilities and riders.

4 minutes ago, iainb said:

That's exactly what I'm getting at, Speedway needs serious surgery to attract today's society that are willing to part with their cash... the programme board and sew on patch brigade ain't going to like that but it might be a price they have to pay to see the sport continue successfully. Tinker about with rules, points limits, tactical's all you like, won't make a jot of difference. 

but how radical do you go? can you go? Move the whole thing indoors? Electric bikes on 'plastic' tracks? For me 1 minute races are the ideal format for low attention spans but you need them delivered in quick succession. They penalise slow play in white ball cricket because they know what the fans want, boundaries and wickets. The fans even cheer dot balls now.

Imagine the darts if between each leg there was a ten minute break whilst someone cleaned the board? I find darts to be incredibly repetitive, same two blokes playing the same game over and over and don't get me started on the cringy nicknames, but it does produce some dramatic finishes. Just not sure how speedway can deliver the constant action that attracts the masses. 

[IainB]

10 minutes ago, enotian said:

I think the current promoters think if they can provide the same format as the Polish League then the crowds will return like they do in Poland. Just a couple of vital missing ingredients. Tracks, facilities and riders.

but how radical do you go? can you go? Move the whole thing indoors? Electric bikes on 'plastic' tracks? For me 1 minute races are the ideal format for low attention spans but you need them delivered in quick succession. They penalise slow play in white ball cricket because they know what the fans want, boundaries and wickets. The fans even cheer dot balls now.

Imagine the darts if between each leg there was a ten minute break whilst someone cleaned the board? I find darts to be incredibly repetitive, same two blokes playing the same game over and over and don't get me started on the cringy nicknames, but it does produce some dramatic finishes. Just not sure how speedway can deliver the constant action that attracts the masses. 

I think you're going to have to introduce multiple formats, like match races and 1 lap dashes into a match night, mix it up a bit and at a faster pace, it's going to take a better man than I to sort this fine mess out. Incidentally it's a fine mess I quite enjoy but I'm not the person the sport needs to lure in. 

[enotian]

If you did want to have one league of 16 teams then why not run it on a four team tournament basis. 5 home matches, 10 if each opponent visits twice. 15 or 30 away matches respectively. 

Pros. 

Reduces the number or riders 80 instead of 112 for 7 rider teams (reserve would always be a youth rider.

Each fixture has 4 participants(1 home 3 away) appeals to streaming services as you've doubled the potential audience.

Removes guests and R/R 

Format often results in closer finishes

Provides the correct amount of home matches and sufficient away matches to provide riders with similar number of domestic meeting to remove 'doubling up'

Better pathway for young riders with grading replacing points limits.

Cons

No team riding

Home track would have to pay all riders so would require a change to contracting riders

Likely large variances in ability between the top and bottom riders

More riders per meeting. 20 instead of 14

More heats per meeting, at least 16 if not 20 compared to 15

 

Personally I think Discovery Sport have a role to play here. If they're serious about growing the SGP/SON/SWC brand they need to ensure the development of riders across a number of nations then they do need to provide a platform or opportunities to develop. I'd like to see a Euro Club League along the lines above. A couple of teams from each of the main countries, maybe more from Poland and a couple of development clubs from the likes of, Germany, Italy, France, Checia, Latvia for example. In terms of this country less is more but you get to see the top starts in league action in say 10 or 15 meetings in the UK.  

[enotian]

51 minutes ago, iainb said:

I think you're going to have to introduce multiple formats, like match races and 1 lap dashes into a match night, mix it up a bit and at a faster pace, it's going to take a better man than I to sort this fine mess out. Incidentally it's a fine mess I quite enjoy but I'm not the person the sport needs to lure in. 

There's a fine line between things being becoming novelty though.  I used to love the gold/silver helmet match races and 2nd halves but they were discarded. Not sure why? Riders didn't want them? Fans didn't want them? Promoters couldn't afford them? Probably a bit of all of those reasons.

Personally I lost interest before the demise of the Diamonds due to the scratch nature of teams and lack of variety. But mostly because I was hanging around for 2 hours plus to see 15 minutes of mostly not great racing. At least the first 4 of which the track was rubbish followed by a long delay to put it right then more likely the last 2 or 3 heats didn;t matter but still took half and hour to complete.

I still watch and mostly enjoy the GP's but that's part of the problem for domestic speedway. If you watch SGP and/or Polish speedway and compare that to what the UK have to offer it's a poor comparison without being priced cheaply, 

[IainB]

9 hours ago, enotian said:

There's a fine line between things being becoming novelty though.  I used to love the gold/silver helmet match races and 2nd halves but they were discarded. Not sure why? Riders didn't want them? Fans didn't want them? Promoters couldn't afford them? Probably a bit of all of those reasons. 

I used to enjoy them too, it gave junior riders an opportunity for regular rides, the club to attract sponsors for the 2nd half event and the punters a bit of value for money. From memory I think the (top) riders didn't like doing it.

[SJA]

Just where are all the riders going to come from? Remember that a rider would be unable to double up for two clubs in the same league.

Even if you went to five man teams I suspect the one league would have a standard well below that if this years Championship. How attractive is that?

And that's before you come up with a structure that works for say Ipswich as well as it works for say Edinburgh.....

The way to develop the sport is to have a Czar in charge of all aspects, who is not connected with one specific Club and has the opportunity to develop the sport as they see fit without the interference of any club. Step forward Phil Morris....