Excluded for dangerous riding rule - Holder pass on Lampart on TV 22/07

[rsarjant]

Is there such a rule in British speedway still? I’m sure there used to be. I seem to recall Polish leagues have yellow and red cards for dangerous riding. I’m a neutral but wasn’t Chris Holder’s pass on Lampart on the televised meeting on Eurosport an example of this? I couldn’t believe the ref didn’t exclude Holder. 

[IainB]

I thought the exact same thing! I could be wrong but I think there may have been a couple of rules in days gone by, unfair riding and dangerous riding, I say that as I seem to remember years and years ago Chris Morton was excluded at Coventry and an announcement was made over the PA saying that Chris Morton would like it to be known that he was excluded for "unfair" riding and not "dangerous riding", whether there were 2 rules or it was just announced incorrectly I don't know, but either way the rule seems to be a thing of the past or just not used at all in the last 15 years or so (at meetings I've attended anyway)

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

9 hours ago, rsarjant said:

Is there such a rule in British speedway still? I’m sure there used to be. I seem to recall Polish leagues have yellow and red cards for dangerous riding. I’m a neutral but wasn’t Chris Holder’s pass on Lampart on the televised meeting on Eurosport an example of this? I couldn’t believe the ref didn’t exclude Holder. 

The lift from holder wasn’t intentional therefor no card should be considered,as much as it startled lampart causing him to shut off I don’t think it would of resulted in a crash even if lampart hadn’t of shut off, if it did cause a crash then holder would be excluded but you cant run a sport on what ifs. speedway is a hard game rid by strong minded individuals,sometimes it’s your day other times it isn’t, they all know that 

Edited July 23 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[DJC]

It was no different to a large amount of passes in the SON - none were questioned. 

He lifted and gained control quick enough to stop the accident - Lampart quick enough to also help prevent it. 

IF anything was questionable last night (bar the commentary) it was Howarth's pass on Flint, but again that was due to him picking up and lifting coming out of the corner. 

 

[scaramanga]

id say the pass was more track conditions but the foot out was a bit iffy (only trying to balance but iffy)

it did seam to  affect lampart

if they touched then holder should have been classed as the cause if any went down 

[old bob at herne bay]

SO .... does anyone know if there is still a rule of unfair or dangerous riding.

IMO  since the advent of  air fences riders take  liberties with their manouevres, a combination of the inflexible high revving narrow power band machines, track conditions and poor machine control

 

 

 

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

16 minutes ago, old bob at herne bay said:

SO .... does anyone know if there is still a rule of unfair or dangerous riding.

IMO  since the advent of  air fences riders take  liberties with their manouevres, a combination of the inflexible high revving narrow power band machines, track conditions and poor machine control

 

 

 

Not sure if it’s a rule or it’s at discretion of referee but how do you define dangerous? Intent or just out of control? I can think of a couple who fit in to the later category but I can’t think of any who fit the first, the whole sport is fairly dangerous by it’s nature but I believe is very safe now compared to how it was, I think every rider has respect in some way for every other rider and wouldn’t set out to hurt another rider despite harder riding by some than others 

Edited July 23 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[naffer]

I know Nicky P would have played it differently if he was in Lamparts place, he would have bailed and done his outraged act shaking of the head and wagging his finger at Chris holder.

meanwhile the cat in the hat would be at the refs box.

 

 

 

[Sir Sidney]

1 hour ago, old bob at herne bay said:

SO .... does anyone know if there is still a rule of unfair or dangerous riding.

IMO  since the advent of  air fences riders take  liberties with their manouevres, a combination of the inflexible high revving narrow power band machines, track conditions and poor machine control

 

 

 

Yes

012.1.14  Foul, Unfair or Dangerous riding

[old bob at herne bay]

Thank you Sir Sidney.

How strange Mr N Pedersen should come up on a thread involving dangerous riding :-)

Wagging his rear wheel as he went past and stuffing them in the fence his speciality :-)

[Andrew]

Greg Bartlett got excluded for unfair riding after his first ever race for Sheffield back in 1994.He locked up on the 4th turn on the 3rd lap while in 3rd and the Ref decided he had impeded the rider in 4th.Not seen a decision like that since.Tom Brennan was extremely hard on Jan Kvech last week at Owlerton in a move Nicki/Sean Wilson would have been hard pressed to beat!

[steve roberts]

I recall that a rider could be excluded for "boring" (I'll ignore some of the comments this may raise!) meaning a rider didn't actually have to make contact but a move that causes another rider to fall. I remember Malcolm Ballard once being excluded under the rule when in a race with Howard Cole causing him to fall when closing him down but without making physical contact 

[IainB]

14 hours ago, Sir Sidney said:

Yes

012.1.14  Foul, Unfair or Dangerous riding

If it is indeed still a rule... I wonder when the last time it was used was and who against?

Edited July 24 by iainb

[Sir Sidney]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

If it is indeed still a rule... I wonder when the last time it was used was and who against?

It is still a rule. That's from the regulations for this year, downloadable from the SCB site. 

[IainB]

17 minutes ago, Sir Sidney said:

It is still a rule. That's from the regulations for this year, downloadable from the SCB site. 

Yes, wasn't questioning whether it was still a rule, poorly worded.

[W9 Lion]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

Yes, wasn't questioning whether it was still a rule, poorly worded.

012.1.14 Foul, Unfair or Dangerous Riding
The Referee shall immediately disqualify any rider who they consider
indulges in foul, unfair or dangerous riding.
If, in the opinion of the Referee, such conduct produces an advantage to the
rider involved or affects the chances of one or more riders, the Referee may
stop the heat and order a re-run.
If any rider is unable to cross the finish line as a result of foul, unfair or
dangerous riding on the part of another rider who, inconsequence, has been
disqualified, the disadvantaged rider shall be deemed to have finished the
heat in the placing held immediately before the foul, unfair or dangerous
riding and allowing for any advancement in placing following the
disqualification of the guilty rider.
A similar system shall apply for a rider who, in the opinion of the Referee
has deliberately laid down their machine or has left the track in the interests
of safety.
Speedway Control Bureau Regulations
119
In certain circumstances the Referee may disqualify a rider for foul, unfair
or dangerous riding from the remainder of the meeting. In this case no
replacement facilities are allowed for the remainder of a team meeting.
A Referees decision to declare a heat completed, or disqualify a rider from
a meeting for foul, unfair or dangerous riding shall be deemed a statement
of fact and no protest or appeal is permitted.

[IainB]

I meant my reply to Sir Sidney was poorly worded lol. I didn't doubt there was a rule once he quoted it...

But having said that... It's interesting that "intention" is mentioned in the laying down of a bike "deliberately" but that doesn't appear to be the case in actual foul, dangerous or unfair riding. 

The most recent example that springs to mind for me (that many will have seen)  is the wiping out of Danny King by Sam McGurk in heat 11 of the Workington vs Redcar BSN Series match on the 20th of April. Imo McGurk could easily have been excluded for foul, dangerous or unfair riding but it was just a "fell excluded". He obviously didn't do it deliberately and probably just ran out of skill due to inexperience but that doesn't mean it wasn't foul, dangerous or unfair.

Edited July 24 by iainb

[*JJ]

I suppose that in the Holder/Lampart case, the referee did not exclude anyone, as noone fell off. If Lampart had fallen, then it would certainly have been Holder's fault.

[brianbuck]

In all fairness, "dangerous riding" is very rare in speedway with the general level of respect that riders show for each other.

The two incidents at Birmingham last Monday did (probably) alter the course of the match, but I don't think either of them came under the heading of dangerous. Lampart was distinctly unlucky in that Holder rearing onto his back wheel and looking like running into him, caused him to shut off and lose his lead not only to Holder, but to Jason Edwards as well and gifted Sheffield a 5-1, and Howarth's pass on Leon Flint was a typical Kyle Howarth piece of hard riding. I don't think either Holder or Howarth did anything wrong (although Flint was obviously not happy at being hustled out of his second place), and as a Birmingham supporter, I'm not griping about it - just giving my own thoughts on two incidents which I watched from the centre green from where I probably had a better view than those on the terraces.

Edited July 27 by brianbuck

[szkocjasid]

I think there is a call for referees to make decisions based on how hard a rider moves over / hits another rider, rather than if the opposition falls off.

It seems a rider can be incredibly hard, but as long as his opponent stays on - nothing is done. But someone gets lightly brushed (i.e Riss against Birmingham) and falls they get in the re-run.

I would like the referees to really ask themselves, "could they have stayed on" rather than "was there contact".

Then the reverse for over the top hard racing, if a referee thinks"if rider A fell I'd have excluded rider B" then should rider B not be excluded, even if rider A just managed to stay on?