Knutsson v. Fundin 1961-65

[BOBBATH]

Obviously in speedway history Ove ranks far above Bjorn, no question. Nevertheless I'm wondering how they did both against each other when Bjorn was at his all too brief prime. Also I think in some of those years Bjorn might have had a higher league average and better performances in some prestigious  Open Meetings. I think Bjorn consistently let himself down in World Finals because of his nervous disposition when the pressure was on. It was significant to me that he won his only World Final in 1965 when the pressure was less because he along with other Swedes did not ride in the inaugural BL season.  That was the first World Final I ever saw. Great atmosphere  it started off with Nigel Boocock beating Ove in Heat 1 and in Heat 3 Bengt Jansson beat Bjorn . Ove lost another point when he met Bjorn in Heat 8. Ove finished with 13 to Bjorn on 14. Ove finished third behind Igor Plechanov in a run off for 2nd in a terrific race. The run off was heat 21 of course and tied for the fastest time of the night at 69.0 secs along with Heat 3 and Heat 4- Igor finishing Heat 4  also in the fastest time. It was amazing to me that Heat 21 was still the fastest despite be after 20 races!!!

I would be interested in other forumlanders views on this topic

[norbold]

I had the great honour of seeing Bjorn destroy the opposition week after week at West Ham in 1964. He was immaculate. However, over the period you mention, I would have to say that Ove was the dominant force, not just over Bjorn, but over every other rider. 

Now off to check the record books to see if they confirm my memory of those times.

Edited June 20 by norbold

[chunky]

2 hours ago, norbold said:

I had the great honour of seeing Bjorn destroy the opposition week after week at West Ham in 1964. He was immaculate. However, over the period you mention, I would have to say the Ove was the dominant force, not just over Bjorn, but over every other rider. 

Now off to check the record books to see if they confirm my memory of those times.

But were either of them as good as your boy, Tom?

[chunky]

Okay, just had a quick run-through of their clashes (only on their home tracks) from 1960 to 1964. This is what I found:

1960 Norwich - Fundin 9 - Knutson 1
1960 Soton - Fundin 3 - Knutson 1

1961 Norwich - Fundin 5 - Knutson 2
1961 Soton - Fundin 4 - Knutson 4

1962 Norwich - Fundin 5 - Knutson 1
1962 Soton - Fundin 6 - Knutson 8

1963 Norwich - Fundin 7 - Knutson 2
1963 Soton - Fundin 3 - Knutson 4

1964 Norwich - Fundin 4 - Knutson 3
1964 West Ham - Fundin 10 - Knutson 5

Overall - Fundin 56 - Knutson 31

[norbold]

Thank you, Chunky. I'm glad my memory is still holding out!

[E I Addio]

Personally I don’t think the record books tell the whole story . For one thing records tell us that Jerzy Szczakiel was almost on a par with Ivan Mauger if judged purely on the occasions that met but I would suggest that anyone who put them in the same bracket had taken leave of their senses.  Ivan IMO was probably the best ( or shall we say most successful ) rider of his generation if judged on w week—in week-out basis, assuming we say Fundin, 5 or 6 years older belonged to a previous generation, as  finished his 5 World Championships before Ivan won any of his. How would you guys match those two ?

Then we have Briggo. More erratic on form but at his absolute best I don’t think there was a rider so far ahead of the opposition except arguably Fundin who I didn’t see at his best so can’t really comment. My outstanding memory of Briggo is winning the last of his British  finals at West Ham. The No. 2 gate wasn’t working and nobody did better than third off of it and even Ivan ran a last from it . Then. Briggo came out off No2 and a made it look like it was the others that weren’t working as he waltzed to a 15 point maximum.

Then we’re does Ronnie Moore fit into all this? I have seen him described as the most naturally talented rider that ever sat on a speedway bike .

I only ever saw I’m at the back end of his career when he came back from retirement after 6 years was past his sell by date , but still better than most could ever hope to be, and probably one of the most stylish riders I’ve ever seen. Where does he fit with the others ?

Great Sport to have us all talking like this years later.

[norbold]

I absolutely agree that record books don't tell the whole story. Chunky asked me earlier whether I thought Tom Farndon was as good as Ove or Bjorn. I really can't answer that. Obviously I never saw Farndon ride. But I do think he is a good case in point where record books in themselves don't tell the whole story. Again without looking them up, I would say that the record books would show he did not have quite as good a record as other riders of the pre-War era, Bluey Wilkinson for example. However, reading contemporary newspaper reports and other eye-witness accounts, I don't think there is any doubt that he was idolised like no other rider in the history of the sport. It was of film star proportions. Does that make him the greatest and therefore greater than Fundin, Mauger, Rickardsson, Zmarzlik? I don't know. Probably not in terms of achievements, in fact certainly not, but in terms of what he meant to speedway as a whole, then probably yes. 

On the points you raise, E I, I always consider the 1960s and early 70s to be "my" era for speedway. I used to go two or three times a week, went to all the big meetings, followed the goings on avidly in the speedway press and so on. To my mind, Ove Fundin was just the absolute greatest rider of my era. Again I don't know whether that can be backed up by record books and statistics, in fact probably not when compared to Mauger, but there was just something about seeing Fundin ride. The absolute thrill of seeing the master in action. Mauger never gave me that same feeling. In a funny way, he was just too professional and efficient.

As far as Ronnie Moore is concerned he was, as you say, probably the most naturally talented of the lot. He could ride the inside, the outside, slow races down, speed them up, do everything you could with a bike. He was a great team man and would always look for his team mate to shepherd him home. To Ronnie, the team was everything and I think, in a way, this was his undoing when it came to individual events. In spite of his near perfect bike control, he did not have that ruthless streak of a Fundin or a Briggs and I think that's what led to his probably not winning as many World titles as his talent should have won him.

There is one other rider I would like to mention and that is Jack Young. I only ever saw him in the early 1960s when he was well past his best. But older supporters I knew used to reminisce about seeing him in the early 50s and many thought he was the greatest rider they had ever seen.  In two successive weeks in 1961, he won the King of the South Cup and the Tom Farndon Memorial Trophy at New Cross and he was absolutely stunning. In the course of these wins, he beat Briggs (twice), Fundin, Moore (twice) and Knutson. He was absolutely brilliant and showed what he must have been like in the early 50s at his peak. I always consider it a privilege to have got this glimpse of Youngie at his best and understood why the older supporters rated him as the best ever.

[customhouseregularisback]

2 hours ago, norbold said:

I absolutely agree that record books don't tell the whole story. Chunky asked me earlier whether I thought Tom Farndon was as good as Ove or Bjorn. I really can't answer that. Obviously I never saw Farndon ride. But I do think he is a good case in point where record books in themselves don't tell the whole story. Again without looking them up, I would say that the record books would show he did not have quite as good a record as other riders of the pre-War era, Bluey Wilkinson for example. However, reading contemporary newspaper reports and other eye-witness accounts, I don't think there is any doubt that he was idolised like no other rider in the history of the sport. It was of film star proportions. Does that make him the greatest and therefore greater than Fundin, Mauger, Rickardsson, Zmarzlik? I don't know. Probably not in terms of achievements, in fact certainly not, but in terms of what he meant to speedway as a whole, then probably yes. 

On the points you raise, E I, I always consider the 1960s and early 70s to be "my" era for speedway. I used to go two or three times a week, went to all the big meetings, followed the goings on avidly in the speedway press and so on. To my mind, Ove Fundin was just the absolute greatest rider of my era. Again I don't know whether that can be backed up by record books and statistics, in fact probably not when compared to Mauger, but there was just something about seeing Fundin ride. The absolute thrill of seeing the master in action. Mauger never gave me that same feeling. In a funny way, he was just too professional and efficient.

As far as Ronnie Moore is concerned he was, as you say, probably the most naturally talented of the lot. He could ride the inside, the outside, slow races down, speed them up, do everything you could with a bike. He was a great team man and would always look for his team mate to shepherd him home. To Ronnie, the team was everything and I think, in a way, this was his undoing when it came to individual events. In spite of his near perfect bike control, he did not have that ruthless streak of a Fundin or a Briggs and I think that's what led to his probably not winning as many World titles as his talent should have won him.

There is one other rider I would like to mention and that is Jack Young. I only ever saw him in the early 1960s when he was well past his best. But older supporters I knew used to reminisce about seeing him in the early 50s and many thought he was the greatest rider they had ever seen.  In two successive weeks in 1961, he won the King of the South Cup and the Tom Farndon Memorial Trophy at New Cross and he was absolutely stunning. In the course of these wins, he beat Briggs (twice), Fundin, Moore (twice) and Knutson. He was absolutely brilliant and showed what he must have been like in the early 50s at his peak. I always consider it a privilege to have got this glimpse of Youngie at his best and understood why the older supporters rated him as the best ever.

I really enjoyed reading your post Norbold. I felt the same about Mauger and like you only saw Fundin and Moore late in their careers. More at Wimbledon and was at Wembley when Fundin won his fifth title. Briggs was often unbeatable ( unless racing against Stan Stevens). Like you I would often go to meetings 3 times a week, even travelling to Glasgow and Edinburgh to cheer on the Hammers.

[E I Addio]

Thanks Norbold and CHR. We are of like mind and I think you are the only ones I’ve spoken to who share my view of Mauger. Not that I am knocking him but I always kind of felt that he never had quite the same intensity of opposition that the “big five “ had. Olsen was , for example a big name alongside  Mauger and admittedly you can’t argue with Olsens three World Championships  he also had some World finals where he wasn’t really in it, and I don’t think that could be said about Fundin.  I think Ivan was robbed in ‘73 on that dodgy gate but was a little lucky in ‘72 as Briggo had already beaten him before his crash and really looked unassailable. However, we can opinionate forever on this. 

Jack Young , Norbold. Yes.To come from the second division, even back then and take the world title was phenomenal. 

Edited June 20 by E I Addio

[chunky]

18 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

Jack Young , Norbold. Yes.To come from the second division, even back then and take the world title was phenomenal. 

Years ago on here, there was a discussion on here about "the greatest of all-time", and it was amazing how many people just went for riders they'd seen. I made the point about Jack Young specifically. He retired before I was born, so no, I didn't get to see him, but I did state that it wouldn't prevent me from including him with the very best. Same with Farndon, Huxley, and Duggan...

[E I Addio]

20 minutes ago, chunky said:

Years ago on here, there was a discussion on here about "the greatest of all-time", and it was amazing how many people just went for riders they'd seen. I made the point about Jack Young specifically. He retired before I was born, so no, I didn't get to see him, but I did state that it wouldn't prevent me from including him with the very best. Same with Farndon, Huxley, and Duggan...

Well that’s another moot point. I always say you can only judge the best of their time., Different attitudes, different standards of professionalism, different bikes , different tracks , different standards of opposition, all play into a riders success or lack of. How would Tai Woofinden handle a dirt Douggie  on cinders ? We don’t know, but doesn’t stop the discussions being fascinating.

[iris123]

The thing that struck me i seem to remember when looking at Fardon's scoring, was his inconsistency and a fair number of falls. Although it was a few years ago now. maybe it was down to the tracks or the bikes etc and maybe he was still to peak

But Mauger and Nielsen were extremely consistent, as obviously Fundin was 

[norbold]

13 hours ago, iris123 said:

The thing that struck me i seem to remember when looking at Fardon's scoring, was his inconsistency and a fair number of falls. Although it was a few years ago now. maybe it was down to the tracks or the bikes etc and maybe he was still to peak

But Mauger and Nielsen were extremely consistent, as obviously Fundin was 

Farndon did fall a lot in his early days. It was probably due to his leg trailing style of riding as he leaned his bike over and nearer to the ground than other riders of his time.

The other reason that his scoring wasn't as high as it perhaps might have been was he suffered from engine failures. In the days before riders had armies of mechanics and helpers in the pits, Farndon just wasn't very good at machine maintenance. It was said that Freddie Mockford used to send someone round the track after every one of Farndon's race to pick up the bits that fallen off his bike during the race.

[chunky]

6 hours ago, norbold said:

It was said that Freddie Mockford used to send someone round the track after every one of Farndon's race to pick up the bits that fallen off his bike during the race.

Sounds like Briggo's early days!

[E I Addio]

21 hours ago, chunky said:

Sounds like Briggo's early days!

From what I have read about Briggs’s early says, and from the man himself on the DVD, it seems to me more of a case off sending someone out to pick up fallen riders that the young Briggo had knocked off !

[chunky]

27 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

From what I have read about Briggs’s early says, and from the man himself on the DVD, it seems to me more of a case off sending someone out to pick up fallen riders that the young Briggo had knocked off !

That too, but his bike was literally held together by bits of string!