World Ranking - SGP Qualification

[IainB]

Should there be a different way of qualifying for the SGP series?

At the moment a lot of it seems to be based on opinion and where a riders qualification round is ridden. 

Is the SGP series any the poorer this season without the likes of Janowski, Dudek, Fricke & Thomsen? Judging by Janowski and Fricke's form this year, for me, no.

Will the series be any the poorer next year without Woffinden? Will he get a pick again? Should he have been in it this year? Who are the top 15 riders in the world? Would Holder and Bewley be in the series if the ruskies hadn't have been thrown out or world they still be bumbling about in the qualifiers?

Should the likes of Paco Castanga be 5 rides away from a SGP spot because his qualifier was ridden on his home track?

Is it right that the SEC champion gets an SGP spot, a competition that is not open to non European competitors?

Other sports have published world rankings (Tennis/Golf/Darts/Snooker), should Speedway do the same and base SGP qualification on these rankings?

I'm not quite sure how you'd work it out, that's for somebody cleverer than me. But you could have world ranking events where you score ranking points for competing and based on your finishing position, national championships, SoN/SWC, PCMT, Czech Golden Helmet etc. Also points for league averages every month. 

It'll never happen of course... but it's nice to dream

Edited May 31 by iainb

[Gambo]

9 hours ago, iainb said:

Should there be a different way of qualifying for the SGP series?

At the moment a lot of it seems to be based on opinion and where a riders qualification round is ridden. 

Is the SGP series any the poorer this season without the likes of Janowski, Dudek, Fricke & Thomsen? Judging by Janowski and Fricke's form this year, for me, no.

Will the series be any the poorer next year without Woffinden? Will he get a pick again? Should he have been in it this year? Who are the top 15 riders in the world? Would Holder and Bewley be in the series if the ruskies hadn't have been thrown out or world they still be bumbling about in the qualifiers?

Should the likes of Paco Castanga be 5 rides away from a SGP spot because his qualifier was ridden on his home track?

Is it right that the SEC champion gets an SGP spot, a competition that is not open to non European competitors?

Other sports have published world rankings (Tennis/Golf/Darts/Snooker), should Speedway do the same and base SGP qualification on these rankings?

I'm not quite sure how you'd work it out, that's for somebody cleverer than me. But you could have world ranking events where you score ranking points for competing and based on your finishing position, national championships, SoN/SWC, PCMT, Czech Golden Helmet etc. Also points for league averages every month. 

It'll never happen of course... but it's nice to dream

2024_FIM_Speedway_Grand_Prix_-_Riders_List.pdf (fim-moto.com)

[IainB]

23 minutes ago, Gambo said:

2024_FIM_Speedway_Grand_Prix_-_Riders_List.pdf (fim-moto.com)

Well, that's "a" list of riders I suppose, but we may as well use @Barrow Boy 2list that he puts up. 

That's just the FIM's opinion and you could argue about who should and shouldn't be on it until the cows come home. 

[hammer1969]

9 hours ago, iainb said:

Well, that's "a" list of riders I suppose, but we may as well use @Barrow Boy 2list that he puts up. 

That's just the FIM's opinion and you could argue about who should and shouldn't be on it until the cows come home. 

 

9 hours ago, iainb said:

Well, that's "a" list of riders I suppose, but we may as well use @Barrow Boy 2list that he puts up. 

That's just the FIM's opinion and you could argue about who should and shouldn't be on it until the cows come home. 

Should Woffinden get a pick next year - No - he finished 11th in 2023, apart from injuries he doesn't seem up to GP standard any more, perhaps he'll save face and announce he doesn't want to be in next year's GPs anyway.  Should the Russians be allowed back in - Yes - they are participating in other sports ie Tennis, the GPs would be better for having Emil Sayfutdinov participating and Laguta should also have a place.  How are GP riders picked, let the top 6 automatically qualify, look at 7 and 8 and see if extenuating circumstances apply ie injury that stopped them being in top 6.  As for the rest have some form of Country qualifying rounds, perhaps 3 rounds in each Country and then allocate the places accordingly.

[IainB]

21 minutes ago, hammer1969 said:

 

Should Woffinden get a pick next year - No - he finished 11th in 2023, apart from injuries he doesn't seem up to GP standard any more, perhaps he'll save face and announce he doesn't want to be in next year's GPs anyway.  Should the Russians be allowed back in - Yes - they are participating in other sports ie Tennis, the GPs would be better for having Emil Sayfutdinov participating and Laguta should also have a place.  How are GP riders picked, let the top 6 automatically qualify, look at 7 and 8 and see if extenuating circumstances apply ie injury that stopped them being in top 6.  As for the rest have some form of Country qualifying rounds, perhaps 3 rounds in each Country and then allocate the places accordingly.

That still comes down to "picks" though and is also country dependent, who are the 15 best riders in the world? I'm sorry to single him out as he's a top lad but Is Paco Castanga (averaging 5.98 in the CL) better than Jaimon Lidsey, Szymon Wozniak, Martin Vaculik, Luke Becker, Jacob Thorssell, Benjamin Basso, Rohan Tungate, Tom Brennan or Kim Nilsson? Who have failed to qualify, Paco qualified from Lonigo, his local track. Other riders who didn't even make it to that, well you could probably name at least 30 riders who you'd place ahead of Paco. I stress this is nothing against Paco, before all the Paco brigade start complaining, it just shows that the whole qualification process needs a shake up imo based on rider performances in different country's.  

[arnieg]

20 hours ago, iainb said:

Should there be a different way of qualifying for the SGP series?

At the moment a lot of it seems to be based on opinion and where a riders qualification round is ridden. 

Is the SGP series any the poorer this season without the likes of Janowski, Dudek, Fricke & Thomsen? Judging by Janowski and Fricke's form this year, for me, no.

Will the series be any the poorer next year without Woffinden? Will he get a pick again? Should he have been in it this year? Who are the top 15 riders in the world? Would Holder and Bewley be in the series if the ruskies hadn't have been thrown out or world they still be bumbling about in the qualifiers?

Should the likes of Paco Castanga be 5 rides away from a SGP spot because his qualifier was ridden on his home track?

Is it right that the SEC champion gets an SGP spot, a competition that is not open to non European competitors?

Other sports have published world rankings (Tennis/Golf/Darts/Snooker), should Speedway do the same and base SGP qualification on these rankings?

I'm not quite sure how you'd work it out, that's for somebody cleverer than me. But you could have world ranking events where you score ranking points for competing and based on your finishing position, national championships, SoN/SWC, PCMT, Czech Golden Helmet etc. Also points for league averages every month. 

It'll never happen of course... but it's nice to dream

For top riders the most reliable ranking source would be the Polish Ekstraliga averages.

Fricke, Thomsen and Dudek should all be in the GP on that basis.

If you want to see some world rankings based on the method you outline see the Oxford Chronicle (formerly Cheetahs Chronicle) issue 1 from this year.

[Spoiler alert: Bartosz Zmarzlik comes out at number 1]

[IainB]

14 minutes ago, arnieg said:

For top riders the most reliable ranking source would be the Polish Ekstraliga averages.

Fricke, Thomsen and Dudek should all be in the GP on that basis.

If you want to see some world rankings based on the method you outline see the Oxford Chronicle (formerly Cheetahs Chronicle) issue 1 from this year.

[Spoiler alert: Bartosz Zmarzlik comes out at number 1]

That would be the most reliable source for riders who can ride Polish tracks, but this is a World Championship, we've seen this year with the likes of Janowski, Lampart, Pawlicki & Milik that being able to ride the Polish tracks doesn't mean guaranteed success everywhere else.

Do you have a link to the list you mention?

[arnieg]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

That still comes down to "picks" though and is also country dependent, who are the 15 best riders in the world? I'm sorry to single him out as he's a top lad but Is Paco Castanga (averaging 5.98 in the CL) better than Jaimon Lidsey, Szymon Wozniak, Martin Vaculik, Luke Becker, Jacob Thorssell, Benjamin Basso, Rohan Tungate, Tom Brennan or Kim Nilsson? Who have failed to qualify, Paco qualified from Lonigo, his local track. Other riders who didn't even make it to that, well you could probably name at least 30 riders who you'd place ahead of Paco. I stress this is nothing against Paco, before all the Paco brigade start complaining, it just shows that the whole qualification process needs a shake up imo based on rider performances in different country's.  

Paco Castagna is 223 on the list. All the others you quote are in the top 100. Based on 2023 meetings (in practice Nov 22 to Oct 23) covering 900 meetings and featuring over 800 riders here's the top 20:

Incidentally the next five are four more Poles and Nicki Pedersen.

Note: The exercise involves working out a weighted race average, so for example points scored in a Grand Prix ride are worth over five times those scored in a National Development League match. As the largest league in the world, I have given the British Championship a weighting of 1.00 – tougher competitions have higher ratings and weaker events get a weighting of less than one. The weighting of each competition requires some judgement, aided by comparing the performances of riders who ride in multiple league/events across those competitions.

[IainB]

That's exactly the type of thing but it needs tweaking for me as some of the Poles are rated far too high, Koldziej, Pawlicki, Janowski, Hampel, Drabik & Kubera shouldn't be anywhere near the SGP

[arnieg]

6 hours ago, iainb said:

That's exactly the type of thing but it needs tweaking for me as some of the Poles are rated far too high, Koldziej, Pawlicki, Janowski, Hampel, Drabik & Kubera shouldn't be anywhere near the SGP

So you don't want any Poles bar Bartosz, or Max Fricke in the series. Just who do you think should be in the GP's?

[IainB]

8 minutes ago, arnieg said:

So you don't want any Poles bar Bartosz, or Max Fricke in the series. Just who do you think should be in the GP's?

The best 15 riders in the world (not just in Poland) regardless of nationality, simples 

Edited June 1 by iainb

[Big Al]

On 5/31/2024 at 1:35 PM, iainb said:

Should there be a different way of qualifying for the SGP series?

At the moment a lot of it seems to be based on opinion and where a riders qualification round is ridden. 

Is the SGP series any the poorer this season without the likes of Janowski, Dudek, Fricke & Thomsen? Judging by Janowski and Fricke's form this year, for me, no.

Will the series be any the poorer next year without Woffinden? Will he get a pick again? Should he have been in it this year? Who are the top 15 riders in the world? Would Holder and Bewley be in the series if the ruskies hadn't have been thrown out or world they still be bumbling about in the qualifiers?

Should the likes of Paco Castanga be 5 rides away from a SGP spot because his qualifier was ridden on his home track?

Is it right that the SEC champion gets an SGP spot, a competition that is not open to non European competitors?

Other sports have published world rankings (Tennis/Golf/Darts/Snooker), should Speedway do the same and base SGP qualification on these rankings?

I'm not quite sure how you'd work it out, that's for somebody cleverer than me. But you could have world ranking events where you score ranking points for competing and based on your finishing position, national championships, SoN/SWC, PCMT, Czech Golden Helmet etc. Also points for league averages every month. 

It'll never happen of course... but it's nice to dream

Firstly, I'd give any newcomer to SGP a two-year contract. With a rider returning after a time gap, it would be a one-year deal initially but could be changed to two years halfway through the season, if he is holding a top 8 position.

Secondly, and linked to the above, assess riders on the basis of their immediate past 16 SGP performances, when it comes to making decisions on whether or not they will be invited back for the following season (where their 2-year protection has expired). 

The SGP challenge should be scrapped as a qualification route, as should the SEC. Individual federations would instead nominate rider/s of their choosing, on whatever basis they wish, and an FIM jury would choose who to award vacant places to.

[IainB]

3 hours ago, Big Al said:

Firstly, I'd give any newcomer to SGP a two-year contract. With a rider returning after a time gap, it would be a one-year deal initially but could be changed to two years halfway through the season, if he is holding a top 8 position.

Secondly, and linked to the above, assess riders on the basis of their immediate past 16 SGP performances, when it comes to making decisions on whether or not they will be invited back for the following season (where their 2-year protection has expired). 

The SGP challenge should be scrapped as a qualification route, as should the SEC. Individual federations would instead nominate rider/s of their choosing, on whatever basis they wish, and an FIM jury would choose who to award vacant places to.

I like the sound of the first and second points, could add a bit of jeopardy mid season, not so sure on the last point though, when the federation suits and money men get involved you get strange decisions. 

[OveFundinFan]

14 hours ago, Big Al said:

Firstly, I'd give any newcomer to SGP a two-year contract. With a rider returning after a time gap, it would be a one-year deal initially but could be changed to two years halfway through the season, if he is holding a top 8 position.

Secondly, and linked to the above, assess riders on the basis of their immediate past 16 SGP performances, when it comes to making decisions on whether or not they will be invited back for the following season (where their 2-year protection has expired). 

The SGP challenge should be scrapped as a qualification route, as should the SEC. Individual federations would instead nominate rider/s of their choosing, on whatever basis they wish, and an FIM jury would choose who to award vacant places to.

“Firstly” - been thinking the same for a few years now. Mostly speedway GP racing is at a higher level and needs time for a rider to “get up there”. Typically, beginning of the year I didn’t rate Jan Kvech, and he hasn’t contributed much until last Saturday when he showed much potential. Too far behind in points to make top 6 this year, but if he keeps improving I think he deserves a second year, but under current rules it would be difficult.

”Secondly” - not got my head around this thought. Initially looks a bit clumsy. Could be convinced though, maybe.

Last Point - definitely NO. You taken away what a rider may be able to do on the track and given to imperfect thoughts of “man”. Just one example, 1966, Ove Fundin coming to an end of his sparkling international career. He “upsets” SVEM, the Swedish speedway authority. They ban him from riding in certain events which meant he couldn’t compete in the individual world championship qualifiers that year. Come 1967 he’s back in and looking good. Mid season he joins Belle Vue. Come world championship in September, Wembley….one of his favourite tracks and he wins world championship no 5. Take SVEM out do the situation, could Fundin now be showing 6 world championship wins and ranked alongside Mauger and Rikardsson. We will never know. But the point is, imperfect men (SVEM) took away what could have been.   Let the riders compete in qualifiers and qualify by their ability on the track. For sure, you will get riders who qualify who you may think shouldn’t, and riders not qualifying who perhaps should…..but that is speedway and always will be.

[Big Al]

11 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

“Firstly” - been thinking the same for a few years now. Mostly speedway GP racing is at a higher level and needs time for a rider to “get up there”. Typically, beginning of the year I didn’t rate Jan Kvech, and he hasn’t contributed much until last Saturday when he showed much potential. Too far behind in points to make top 6 this year, but if he keeps improving I think he deserves a second year, but under current rules it would be difficult.

”Secondly” - not got my head around this thought. Initially looks a bit clumsy. Could be convinced though, maybe.

Last Point - definitely NO. You taken away what a rider may be able to do on the track and given to imperfect thoughts of “man”. Just one example, 1966, Ove Fundin coming to an end of his sparkling international career. He “upsets” SVEM, the Swedish speedway authority. They ban him from riding in certain events which meant he couldn’t compete in the individual world championship qualifiers that year. Come 1967 he’s back in and looking good. Mid season he joins Belle Vue. Come world championship in September, Wembley….one of his favourite tracks and he wins world championship no 5. Take SVEM out do the situation, could Fundin now be showing 6 world championship wins and ranked alongside Mauger and Rikardsson. We will never know. But the point is, imperfect men (SVEM) took away what could have been.   Let the riders compete in qualifiers and qualify by their ability on the track. For sure, you will get riders who qualify who you may think shouldn’t, and riders not qualifying who perhaps should…..but that is speedway and always will be.

Can't disagree about the qualification question, thought that could be rather contentious. Mainly, I don't like the process culminating in one single meeting. Perhaps scrap the SEC and bring in a 4-round competition open to riders worldwide to qualify for?

With the assessment of riders taking part in SGP, that assessment would run separately from the points accumulation within one season in order to produce the 1-2-3 podium positions. Based on more than just one season's worth of performances and on a rolling basis, it would provide along with two-year contracts, an additional dimension to the competition, especially in current times when it has become rather predictable in terms of who will be the champion. 

[SPEEDY69]

The GP has never been about the best riders in the world, so debating who is is interesting but not relevant to the GP's. 

[IainB]

10 minutes ago, SPEEDY69 said:

The GP has never been about the best riders in the world, so debating who is is interesting but not relevant to the GP's. 

Exactly what I said I'm my op... just a bit of fun