Berwick v Glasgow , BSN thingy , 6/4/24 @7pm

[IainB]

31 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

I believe they've changed the rules this year to allow r/r, which would have helped Birmingham & Plymouth last year, when they lost Morris & Worrall, who were only allowed to be replaced by reserves. But if course, that's no help when it's a reserve who gets suspended.

Is that right? I've had a look through the rules... but it's a heavy read!

Couldn't see anything, that's not to say it's not there. The only thing I could see was that the excluded riders rides can be taken by a reserve or TS 08.2.2 z

Edited April 7 by iainb

[allthegearbutnaeidea]

29 minutes ago, iainb said:

I'm looking at the bigger picture not specifically just last night. Last year at Birmingham, when Nick Morris got busted, from memory it couldn't/wasn't announced to the crowd and they had to compete without him, at the time Brummies were going through a particularly tough time, especially with their crowds and it's not inconceivable that events like this could lead to a clubs closure, especially if a few that are turning up say stuff this for a game of soldiers, I ain't coming again. Then the very next day they are granted a facility to cover for him, well, why not on the night, what's the difference? Like I've already said, what if the meeting was abandoned and had to be re-staged, do they go into that with no facility? Even though the rest of the team may be different and they've probably been riding the previous meetings with a facility, where is the consistency?

Riders should think about that before letting their clubs down then shouldn’t they? I’m not talking about Complin here, but the Morris scenario you are alluding to.

[mac101]

The second test done in the lab will determine what was picked up in the first test  pretty sure they can tell the difference  between medication drugs and cocaine now a days 

[Bandit59]

5 minutes ago, mac101 said:

The second test done in the lab will determine what was picked up in the first test  pretty sure they can tell the difference  between medication drugs and cocaine now a days 

Think it was cocaine that was found in Richies

[IainB]

8 minutes ago, allthegearbutnaeidea said:

Riders should think about that before letting their clubs down then shouldn’t they? I’m not talking about Complin here, but the Morris scenario you are alluding to.

You're right of course... but they can't even think sufficiently about themselves let alone anybody else. Either you should get a facility or you don't, I don't know why the clock passing midnight should make any difference. 

[Cast1rn]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

If his 2nd test does come back negative, and like you I hope it does, it'd make the fact that Glasgow were forced to ride with 6 even more of a mockery.

The 2nd test would return the exact same result if it was poured into another £5.60 test cup. The difference and this is only my understanding, is that it goes to the laboratory where they can determine what has triggered the non negative test and the quantity remaining. If it has been declared "I have a prescription for this and this is what I have taken" then that will be confirmed or denied from the lab results. Then it would be up to the SCB as to what to do based on the results.

I am 100% for clean riders and that's why the rules are in force, I just feel they have to realise the scope of "athletes" they are dealing with.

I would say let's wait and see what comes in a few days and make our forum discussion based on those results.

 

[StevePark]

9 minutes ago, Bandit59 said:

Think it was cocaine that was found in Richies

Yes, but the other drug found in his system was Benzoylecgonine, which, when taken, produces it's own cocaine through the body.  So it does not necessarily follow that Richie took cocaine on it's own.

[Bandit59]

2 minutes ago, StevePark said:

Yes, but the other drug found in his system was Benzoylecgonine, which, when taken, produces it's own cocaine through the body.  So it does not necessarily follow that Richie took cocaine on it's own.

Cheers, didn't know that 

[IainB]

11 minutes ago, Cast1rn said:

The 2nd test would return the exact same result if it was poured into another £5.60 test cup. The difference and this is only my understanding, is that it goes to the laboratory where they can determine what has triggered the non negative test and the quantity remaining. If it has been declared "I have a prescription for this and this is what I have taken" then that will be confirmed or denied from the lab results. Then it would be up to the SCB as to what to do based on the results.

I am 100% for clean riders and that's why the rules are in force, I just feel they have to realise the scope of "athletes" they are dealing with.

I would say let's wait and see what comes in a few days and make our forum discussion based on those results.

 

I don't have an issue at all with the testing procedure it is tried and tested, while not wanting to see any riders test positive, if they do they must face the consequences. What I do have an issue with is the inconsistency with the rules regarding the replacement for the not innocent rider. An inconsistency that was revealed last year and still seems to be in place for this year. 

[phillipsr]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

I don't have an issue at all with the testing procedure it is tried and tested, while not wanting to see any riders test positive, if they do they must face the consequences. What I do have an issue with is the inconsistency with the rules regarding the replacement for the not innocent rider. An inconsistency that was revealed last year and still seems to be in place for this year. 

How do you replace a rider who failed a test an hour before a meeting?? Where are you getting these riders from?? 

[IanBrannan]

2 hours ago, iainb said:

I'm looking at the bigger picture not specifically just last night. Last year at Birmingham, when Nick Morris got busted, from memory it couldn't/wasn't announced to the crowd and they had to compete without him, at the time Brummies were going through a particularly tough time, especially with their crowds and it's not inconceivable that events like this could lead to a clubs closure, especially if a few that are turning up say stuff this for a game of soldiers, I ain't coming again. Then the very next day they are granted a facility to cover for him, well, why not on the night, what's the difference? Like I've already said, what if the meeting was abandoned and had to be re-staged, do they go into that with no facility? Even though the rest of the team may be different and they've probably been riding the previous meetings with a facility, where is the consistency?

But what is the point in granting a facility to get a guest rider, when the test takes place 1 hour or less before start time. Who is going to turn up?  Ask any team manager, they struggle to get guests with 3 days notice let alone 30 mins

Glasgow could have named a number 8, but if they don’t have one there they can’t. 

This is also intended as a team punishment for that fixture too, with any subsequent penalties on the individual concerned rather than team league points for example. 
 

 

[IainB]

1 hour ago, phillipsr said:

How do you replace a rider who failed a test an hour before a meeting?? Where are you getting these riders from?? 

A rider doesn't necessarily need to be replaced with another rider, there are other facilities RR and IRR for example. There may also be a rider in attendance in the pits who might want to step in

1 hour ago, IanBrannan said:

This is also intended as a team punishment for that fixture too, with any subsequent penalties on the individual concerned rather than team league points for example. 

 

 

I very much doubt the implementation of this rule has been thought through, why would you want to punish the team for something a rider has done of his own volition? And especially when they've not even been proven to be guilty! The rulebook does stress that the rider is not guilty after the first test, so why the punishment? And again I ask what would happen, if the meeting was abandoned, for the restaging?

I'm glad you can see that it is inconsistent though, whether you agree with it or not. I don't know why you'd want to see a team penalised just for one night though?

Edited April 7 by iainb

[scaramanga]

1 hour ago, StevePark said:

Yes, but the other drug found in his system was Benzoylecgonine, which, when taken, produces it's own cocaine through the body.  So it does not necessarily follow that Richie took cocaine on it's own.

is Benzoylecgonine not what they class as the breakdown product 

its whats left after you take cocaine  it does not make its own cocaine in the body 

your liver disolves the cocaine and produces Benzoylecgonine from the cocaine  

cocaine if used  now and then cant be traced after a few hours but the Benzoylecgonine stays for days after use 

do a little research 

[Fromafar]

3 hours ago, lisa-colette said:

Don't think Glasgow will say anything til the results are back from the lab. 

If you really think about it,there is nothing to say TILL they get the result back.!!

[StevePark]

31 minutes ago, scaramanga said:

is Benzoylecgonine not what they class as the breakdown product 

its whats left after you take cocaine  it does not make its own cocaine in the body 

your liver disolves the cocaine and produces Benzoylecgonine from the cocaine  

cocaine if used  now and then cant be traced after a few hours but the Benzoylecgonine stays for days after use 

do a little research 

You are correct. I got a little confused.

BUT..... "Benzoylecgonine can be found in medical products as a topical muscle relaxer, anesthetic or to relieve muscle pain."

Taken from https://drugs.ncats.io/drug/5353I8I6YS

[Lioness]

11 hours ago, Nickinho said:

You do realise that he lives in Scotland and can be sent to prison for seven years just for upsetting you 

Who cares! Chill. You're making this forum way too serious and unenjoyable.

There’s a nice wee ignore button you can use. 

[szkocjasid]

3 hours ago, iainb said:

Is that right? I've had a look through the rules... but it's a heavy read!

Couldn't see anything, that's not to say it's not there. The only thing I could see was that the excluded riders rides can be taken by a reserve or TS 08.2.2 z

I've not seen it in the rules, just read a team manager commenting on it. Unless I'm mistaken & confusing it with another rule change?

[Lioness]

31 minutes ago, StevePark said:

You are correct. I got a little confused.

BUT..... "Benzoylecgonine can be found in medical products as a topical muscle relaxer, anesthetic or to relieve muscle pain."

Taken from https://drugs.ncats.io/drug/5353I8I6YS

Topical medications just affect the area they are applied to though and don’t go beyond the skin layer (unless one of a very few used in extreme excess and even then it is very unlikely) That would take a transdermal product which would be on prescription.

It is a very complex area. In individual cases and medications even pharmacists would reach for the reference books That is why it is best to wait and see what the lab says and take it from there

[speedwaysliders]

The bottom line is,the tests at the start of the meeting are great and im sure everyone welcomes randam testing,there a few posters on here that get what im trying to say.PRE MATCH testing is quite new,and we are going to have the same problems again when the next rider fails a test.All im trying to explain and maybe not too well,is that this is a new practice,and sooner or later its going to happen again.100% punish the rider,BUT NOT THE FANS.I havnt got the answer but the people who are carrrying out the tests,must have thought this through and come up with a solution surely.

ie GREAT TESTING

     RIDER OR RIDERS FOUND GUILTY AND BANNED TO RIDE ON THE NIGHT

PLAN B PUT INTO OPERATION FOR THE TEAM WITH BANNED RIDER OR RIDERS SO THE MEETING CAN TAKE PLACE WITH 4 RIDER RACES.THAT PLAN B AT THE MOMENT IS ...........................?!!!!!!!

[Cast1rn]

Just did a wee bit of maths, to test the entire team every meeting it would cost £78.40, in the super grand scheme of things that isn't a lot.

To lab test a sample costs £120 (off Googley search £60 if done on mass) 

So simply charge every rider £5.60 a meeting to ensure a 100% clean sport.

If you get a "non negative" result the rider forks out the £120/£60 to prove their clean or not.

Don't ban the rider on the night but upon return of the lab test. Teams aren't affected, fans get a proper meeting.