Noelinho Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 20 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said: For me heat format should be revised where 6 & 7 meet each other and numbers 2 & 4. Riders 1,3 & 5 should meet each other and numbers 2,4 so you're always racing against riders of their own level or in positions in teams they hope to get to . I will never be convinced that a reserve should ever get the opposition heat leaders Wouldn't that just mean all the averages end up converging together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Noelinho said: Wouldn't that just mean all the averages end up converging together? Grading riders at the end of the season might solve some of the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 41 minutes ago, Noelinho said: Wouldn't that just mean all the averages end up converging together? No would give riders who want to progress the opportunity to race their piers and develop , the sport in the uk is becoming sink or swim with no development for younger riders then we wonder why the attrition rate is so high and rider numbers are falling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noelinho Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 46 minutes ago, Fromafar said: Grading riders at the end of the season might solve some of the problems. Yes, that could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Noelinho said: Wouldn't that just mean all the averages end up converging together? Could have races where 4 reserves are out being scored 2.5/1.5/0.5/0 & 4 heat leaders scored as 3.5/2.5/1.5/0.5? This would just be used to work out averages (so they are more realistic) not used for the match scores! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 36 minutes ago, Noelinho said: Yes, that could work. I think too much is made of the averages.Too precise, grading is solution ,but then you will get riders trying to manipulate into the right argument will come up.Can’t really win with them IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, phillwhitewasmad said: For me heat format should be revised where 6 & 7 meet each other and numbers 2 & 4. Riders 1,3 & 5 should meet each other and numbers 2,4 so you're always racing against riders of their own level or in positions in teams they hope to get to . I will never be convinced that a reserve should ever get the opposition heat leaders In the elite league fast track format heat leaders (1,3,5) never meet reserves (6,7). Second strings (2,4) meet everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 Just now, szkocjasid said: In the elite league fast track format heat leaders (1,3,5) never meet reserves (6,7). Second strings (2,4) meet everyone. Wasn't sure it worked like that but that's what I was alluding to . Should be like that across all leagues 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 45 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said: No would give riders who want to progress the opportunity to race their piers and develop , the sport in the uk is becoming sink or swim with no development for younger riders then we wonder why the attrition rate is so high and rider numbers are falling There's a massive difference between numbers 6 & 7 currently. As stronger number 7 (Borke, Kemp) meets a reserve in every race, you could argue for their development he should be racing stronger riders more often. A weaker number 6 (Wood, Ablitt) meet a reserve in heat 2, then race the 1/2 & 3/4 pairings, before often getting dropped from their last ride! Riders like Ablitt, Coles, Harrison, Trigger & Pijper are more likely to improve racing at 7, so I'd like a Prem style rule, where they have to be there (& not replaced in heat 8). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted October 2, 2023 Report Share Posted October 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said: Wasn't sure it worked like that but that's what I was alluding to . Should be like that across all leagues I'd agree with that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronScorpion Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 On 10/2/2023 at 7:41 AM, Beirao said: While 40 points was the team build limit, by the end of the season team averages are again centering on 42, so 36 is a 6 point drop. With programmed rides up to & including heat 14, it will always rise to 42. On 10/2/2023 at 12:47 PM, Skidder1 said: The BSPL could always change the heat formula Or the SCB. They are the rule makers. The BSPLtd are just the voices for all(most) of the promoters. 16 hours ago, phillwhitewasmad said: For me heat format should be revised where 6 & 7 meet each other and numbers 2 & 4. Riders 1,3 & 5 should meet each other and numbers 2,4 so you're always racing against riders of their own level or in positions in teams they hope to get to . I will never be convinced that a reserve should ever get the opposition heat leaders The issue with that is that heat leaders MUST ride at 1, 3 or 5. Even in Poland, their top riders do not ride at 1 15 hours ago, Noelinho said: Wouldn't that just mean all the averages end up converging together? Probably as the heat leaders get harder rides & 2nd strings get easier rides. 15 hours ago, Fromafar said: Grading riders at the end of the season might solve some of the problems. Could be both as the better teams(payment, sponsorship & benefits) will always get the top end of each grade. Top(7.2 - max) will be 3, Medium(4.6 - 7.2) will be 2, Lower(2 -4.6) will be 1. Build to 12 in any combination. (3x3 + 3x1, 2x3 + 2x2 + 2x1, 1x3 +4x2 +1x1, 6x2). Averages used would be from 0.5 to 3 & build to a maximum of 12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, IronScorpion said: With programmed rides up to & including heat 14, it will always rise to 42. Or the SCB. They are the rule makers. The BSPLtd are just the voices for all(most) of the promoters. The BSPL would need to agree changes at the AGM and then propose any changes to SCB for rubber-stamping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crescent girl Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 If averages are to be used to level teams up for the start of the new season, and the league is to in be more or less the same format, it should be realised that as four teams have finished this year under 40.00 and five above that figure, continuing to use 40.00 as the starting total would be logical. The lower-level teams could strengthen, and the clubs with higher figures (Poole are on 45.55!) would have to surrender points -- making riders available for the weaker teams. Too easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePark Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 49 minutes ago, crescent girl said: If averages are to be used to level teams up for the start of the new season, and the league is to in be more or less the same format, it should be realised that as four teams have finished this year under 40.00 and five above that figure, continuing to use 40.00 as the starting total would be logical. The lower-level teams could strengthen, and the clubs with higher figures (Poole are on 45.55!) would have to surrender points -- making riders available for the weaker teams. Too easy? Only if they can afford them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronScorpion Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 58 minutes ago, crescent girl said: If averages are to be used to level teams up for the start of the new season, and the league is to in be more or less the same format, it should be realised that as four teams have finished this year under 40.00 and five above that figure, continuing to use 40.00 as the starting total would be logical. The lower-level teams could strengthen, and the clubs with higher figures (Poole are on 45.55!) would have to surrender points -- making riders available for the weaker teams. Too easy? Due to team changes & artificially reducement whereas the top teams had limited changes with high improvements due to trying to be the no1 team for the picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beirao Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 17 hours ago, Fromafar said: Grading riders at the end of the season might solve some of the problems. Sorry but it wouldn't. Riders with an average just below the grade cut off would become prime targets. Teams filled with these guys would be even stronger than before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beirao Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 2 hours ago, crescent girl said: If averages are to be used to level teams up for the start of the new season, and the league is to in be more or less the same format, it should be realised that as four teams have finished this year under 40.00 and five above that figure, continuing to use 40.00 as the starting total would be logical. The lower-level teams could strengthen, and the clubs with higher figures (Poole are on 45.55!) would have to surrender points -- making riders available for the weaker teams. Too easy? Why 40.00? The mean of the nine clubs is more likely to be around 42.00, particularly if the top three are 45+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Beirao said: Why 40.00? The mean of the nine clubs is more likely to be around 42.00, particularly if the top three are 45+. Because it would be advantageous to Berwick. You and I know the par (neutral) starting position is 42. If you want weaker teams then go for 40 by all means, but let's not pretend it's the 'steady state'. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 3, 2023 Report Share Posted October 3, 2023 3 hours ago, Beirao said: Sorry but it wouldn't. Riders with an average just below the grade cut off would become prime targets. Teams filled with these guys would be even stronger than before. Just set a team average using the mean average of all the riders in the grade.. Eg Mean averages of all riders in each grade. Grade A = 8, B = 7, C = 6, D = 5, E = 4... Team Average equals 30 in this instance.. That way the ones with the big money couldn't pay to get all the top end of each grade as they would not hit the mean average.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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