orion Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, bellevueace said: Its difficult to compare different sports, stock cars for example have the best fastest drivers starting from the rear of the grid, something speedway dabbled with in the sixties handicapping the top riders. Throughout the sports history there have always been cinderella clubs who were never going to be contending. Things like the guest rule most people are critical of it, but if a club loses a number one how else do they replace that scoring power? Fans will always have different opinions about certain aspects of the sport. We could do with some injection of positivity like the return of clubs like Swindon, Coventry, and hopefully Wolves can return. Some fair points .. Guests are never perfect but i never seen anyone come up with better way that covers fairness and also make sure people go to watch the match still . i try to defend the powers that be as i understand how hard it is to get the balance right Edited September 29, 2023 by orion 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevueace Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 2 minutes ago, orion said: Some fair points .. Guests are never perfect but i never seen anyone come up with better way that covers fairness and also make sure people go to watch the match still . i try to defend the powers that as i understand how hard it is to get the balance right Yes it is difficult and if a team loses its top rider theres no other option to the guest system as we dont have a squad system. Where it does look silly is the situation where Harris rode for Ipswich to help them get into the final and now finds himself Riding for Sheffield against them, thats an example i think why the sport is not seen as credible in the eyes of some. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toady Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 The folks that actually attend these meetings are well used to these things it isn’t like it’s new 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 14 minutes ago, bellevueace said: Yes it is difficult and if a team loses its top rider theres no other option to the guest system as we dont have a squad system. Where it does look silly is the situation where Harris rode for Ipswich to help them get into the final and now finds himself Riding for Sheffield against them, thats an example i think why the sport is not seen as credible in the eyes of some. Sometimes it is probably best that the sport gets hardly any mainstream coverage... And you can add Jack Smith riding against his parent club, and ultimately making a key difference for a team who he doesnt ride for, to the mix... As for Guests, a proper RR facility would cover a No1. The next two riders could take all his rides and still do their own and Ht 15.. Years ago a No1 scored a large % of the teams points, particularly in the 13 Ht era, meaning they were a big miss, now it is more shared around the team so less differential between HL's.. Still, we get to another season end, and this year two more have gone by the way side... Same old, same old, rinse and repeat... Works so well doesnt it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornier Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 25 minutes ago, bellevueace said: Yes it is difficult and if a team loses its top rider theres no other option to the guest system as we dont have a squad system. Where it does look silly is the situation where Harris rode for Ipswich to help them get into the final and now finds himself Riding for Sheffield against them, thats an example i think why the sport is not seen as credible in the eyes of some. Harris isn't riding with any allegiance to any team, he is riding merely for himself although I am sure he will be more than pleased if he has helped that team to a win. Its that simple. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 9 minutes ago, mikebv said: Sometimes it is probably best that the sport gets hardly any mainstream coverage... And you can add Jack Smith riding against his parent club, and ultimately making a key difference for a team who he doesnt ride for, to the mix... As for Guests, a proper RR facility would cover a No1. The next two riders could take all his rides and still do their own and Ht 15.. Years ago a No1 scored a large % of the teams points, particularly in the 13 Ht era, meaning they were a big miss, now it is more shared around the team so less differential between HL's.. Still, we get to another season end, and this year two more have gone by the way side... Same old, same old, rinse and repeat... Works so well doesnt it? What have two teams going got to anything ? the reason they are going have little to do with speedway rules . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceBelle Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 27 minutes ago, mikebv said: Sometimes it is probably best that the sport gets hardly any mainstream coverage... And you can add Jack Smith riding against his parent club, and ultimately making a key difference for a team who he doesnt ride for, to the mix... As for Guests, a proper RR facility would cover a No1. The next two riders could take all his rides and still do their own and Ht 15.. Years ago a No1 scored a large % of the teams points, particularly in the 13 Ht era, meaning they were a big miss, now it is more shared around the team so less differential between HL's.. Still, we get to another season end, and this year two more have gone by the way side... Same old, same old, rinse and repeat... Works so well doesnt it? jack smith is a glasgow asset not b/vue !! he has quoted this on his facebook page ! but b/vue do pay him 95% of his wages this season riding for the colts so you can understand why Lemon was annoyed !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERACE Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 21 minutes ago, AceBelle said: jack smith is a glasgow asset not b/vue !! he has quoted this on his facebook page ! but b/vue do pay him 95% of his wages this season riding for the colts so you can understand why Lemon was annoyed !! I think that was most people's issue, Belle Vue paying his mortgage this year and he scores 4 points that made a difference in the tie. This is not Jack's fault of course but the sport is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceBelle Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 10 minutes ago, SUPERACE said: I think that was most people's issue, Belle Vue paying his mortgage this year and he scores 4 points that made a difference in the tie. This is not Jack's fault of course but the sport is crazy. don't think smith will be riding for colts next season because of this ? that's if the colts start next season ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERACE Posted September 29, 2023 Report Share Posted September 29, 2023 4 minutes ago, AceBelle said: don't think smith will be riding for colts next season because of this ? that's if the colts start next season ?? I agree, unlikely there will be Colts next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 14 hours ago, orion said: What have two teams going got to anything ? the reason they are going have little to do with speedway rules . I would suggest it has quite a lot do with the way the sport is, and has been, ran.. Ice Hockey crowds as an example of a "small sport", averaged over 3100 a match last season.. Sheffield almost 7000.. A similar 3100 average crowd for Speedway and each meeting would generate £65k to £70k or so... If landlords had been getting £20k a night in rent, say 20 times a year, then I would suggest a lot more would have kept the sport at their venue.. As many mention on here, a lot of fans now go simply to watch the racing, rather than bother about the result too much, as, win or lose, you cannot help come away feeling many events are contrived in either a small way, or unfortunately at times, a much bigger way... Big sponsors too will never be engaged to join in if one of their riders are allowed to help a business rival"s team try to win the title, and, at the same time, reduce his own teams chances.. The play offs get "decent crowds" as so many "Speedway Fans" come out of the woodwork to watch them, however, many of these fans who will attend the play offs, wont regularly attend the weekly meetings at their local track, due to that unavoidable feeling that lots of those meetings do, more times than they should, feel "a bit Mickey Mouse"... The big positive though, which should be taken on board, is that the sport can still attract "decent crowds", on these occasions... They just need to find a way to get these people there more regularly.. And "if" the operating model is part of the problem, then a) find out the truth of if it is or not, and b) if so, change it.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevueace Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 15 hours ago, Toady said: The folks that actually attend these meetings are well used to these things it isn’t like it’s new Totally agree speedway fans are used to it, but does it hinder selling it to a new audience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, mikebv said: I would suggest it has quite a lot do with the way the sport is, and has been, ran.. Ice Hockey crowds as an example of a "small sport", averaged over 3100 a match last season.. Sheffield almost 7000.. A similar 3100 average crowd for Speedway and each meeting would generate £65k to £70k or so... If landlords had been getting £20k a night in rent, say 20 times a year, then I would suggest a lot more would have kept the sport at their venue.. As many mention on here, a lot of fans now go simply to watch the racing, rather than bother about the result too much, as, win or lose, you cannot help come away feeling many events are contrived in either a small way, or unfortunately at times, a much bigger way... Big sponsors too will never be engaged to join in if one of their riders are allowed to help a business rival"s team try to win the title, and, at the same time, reduce his own teams chances.. The play offs get "decent crowds" as so many "Speedway Fans" come out of the woodwork to watch them, however, many of these fans who will attend the play offs, wont regularly attend the weekly meetings at their local track, due to that unavoidable feeling that lots of those meetings do, more times than they should, feel "a bit Mickey Mouse"... The big positive though, which should be taken on board, is that the sport can still attract "decent crowds", on these occasions... They just need to find a way to get these people there more regularly.. And "if" the operating model is part of the problem, then a) find out the truth of if it is or not, and b) if so, change it.. Crowds were massive in the old days but that never stop clubs like Leicester Cradley and many others being knock down for redevelopment. .Swindon were one of best supported teams in the league but were still kick out so they try to build on the site .Rent is chicken feed to what you can make by building houses 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevueace Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Dornier said: Harris isn't riding with any allegiance to any team, he is riding merely for himself although I am sure he will be more than pleased if he has helped that team to a win. Its that simple. From a view of a perspective new fan riding for Peterborough Glasgow, and then being used by both play off sides Ipswich in the semi and Sheffield in the final against Ipswich doesnt exactly mirror a serious sport, even though we are used to it. With all Man Utds injuries perhaps we could use Van Dyke as a guest for Martinez:) Edited September 30, 2023 by bellevueace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Man Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 1 hour ago, bellevueace said: From a view of a perspective new fan riding for Peterborough Glasgow, and then being used by both play off sides Ipswich in the semi and Sheffield in the final against Ipswich doesnt exactly mirror a serious sport, even though we are used to it. With all Man Utds injuries perhaps we could use Van Dyke as a guest for Martinez:) Football has a 20 plus man squads, would need a lot of injuries before guests were required Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 19 hours ago, mikebv said: And you can add Jack Smith riding against his parent club, and ultimately making a key difference for a team who he doesnt ride for, to the mix... 18 hours ago, AceBelle said: jack smith is a glasgow asset not b/vue !! he has quoted this on his facebook page ! but b/vue do pay him 95% of his wages this season riding for the colts so you can understand why Lemon was annoyed !! Consider the alternative though, riders for Kent, Mildenhall etc, could guest in any match, but if Colts aren't allowed to guest against the Aces, they'll have less chances to guest as an RS. Seems odd that signing for Belle Vue Colts could limit your Prem chances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceBelle Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 21 minutes ago, szkocjasid said: Consider the alternative though, riders for Kent, Mildenhall etc, could guest in any match, but if Colts aren't allowed to guest against the Aces, they'll have less chances to guest as an RS. Seems odd that signing for Belle Vue Colts could limit your Prem chances? it's a moral thing !! by all means guest but riding against the club that pay's 95% of your wages in a play/off semi-final ?? some people have no morals sadly !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, szkocjasid said: Consider the alternative though, riders for Kent, Mildenhall etc, could guest in any match, but if Colts aren't allowed to guest against the Aces, they'll have less chances to guest as an RS. Seems odd that signing for Belle Vue Colts could limit your Prem chances? 17 hours ago, AceBelle said: it's a moral thing !! by all means guest but riding against the club that pay's 95% of your wages in a play/off semi-final ?? some people have no morals sadly !! I understand your point, but Smith can only guest against Belle Vue because they've deemed him not good enough to ride for them? He's surplus to requirements as Belle Vue (correctly) believe Bailey to be stronger, so in theory shouldn't score any points, if they lost out - need to blame themselves for not riding well enough, that's my view anyway. Edited October 1, 2023 by szkocjasid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Man Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 Just for the record Jack Smith is a Glasgow asset not a Belle Vue one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 30, 2023 Report Share Posted September 30, 2023 1 hour ago, szkocjasid said: I understand your point, but Smith can only guest against Belle Vue because they've deemed him not good enough to ride for them? He's surplus to requirements as Belle Vue (correctly) believe Bailey to be stronger, so on theory shouldn't scire any points, if they lost out - need to blame themselves for not riding well enough, that's my view anyway. Spot on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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