foreverblue Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 1:18 PM, mikebv said: So finally, we can all agree he didnt break any rules then.... As they were "poorly written" they were open to "interpretation" and, therefore, "challenge"... Just like all the "poorly written rules" have been brilliantly challenged and used down the years, ad nauseam, to gain an advantage by the likes of Ian Thomas, Len Silver, Matt Ford and probably many, many more... If you dont want subjectivity and ambiguity, then make the rules up using clarity and precision... . Not hard to do.... Expand You say not hard to do but apparently it is. This is the regulation. A rider may only guest for one team in any 2 legged tie (home and away) It doesn't say you have to use the same guest for both legs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 1:54 PM, foreverblue said: You say not hard to do but apparently it is. This is the regulation. A rider may only guest for one team in any 2 legged tie (home and away) It doesn't say you have to use the same guest for both legs. Expand Then it should... Simple, straight forward, and clear... Not ambiguous, not subjective... Reading that then two different "track ringers" could be brought in... Its nonsense using guests anyway if you ever want the sport to be ever taken seriously, but at least they should try and make it as least Mickey Mouse as is possible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) On 9/20/2023 at 1:59 PM, mikebv said: Then it should... Simple, straight forward, and clear... Not ambiguous, not subjective... Reading that then two different "track ringers" could be brought in... Its nonsense using guests anyway if you ever want the sport to be ever taken seriously, but at least they should try and make it as least Mickey Mouse as is possible... Expand The sport was massive with guests years ago..the sport was taken seriously. then. People caring about guests is completely over stated. Edited September 20, 2023 by orion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me wolfie Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 1:18 PM, mikebv said: So finally, we can all agree he didnt break any rules then.... As they were "poorly written" they were open to "interpretation" and, therefore, "challenge"... Just like all the "poorly written rules" have been brilliantly challenged and used down the years, ad nauseam, to gain an advantage by the likes of Ian Thomas, Len Silver, Matt Ford and probably many, many more... If you dont want subjectivity and ambiguity, then make the rules up using clarity and precision... . Not hard to do.... Expand It doesn't make it okay though does it. And answer me why certain BV fans still bring up Tai in 2016 as a 'ringer' when that was perfectly legit and within the rules (and still is today) with no bending or twisting of the rules required. I can probably guess why, because you lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 1:54 PM, foreverblue said: You say not hard to do but apparently it is. This is the regulation. A rider may only guest for one team in any 2 legged tie (home and away) It doesn't say you have to use the same guest for both legs. Expand A guest who is eligible for the home leg (+5% of the missing rider's average) may therefore not be eligible for the away leg anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERACE Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 12:42 PM, Call me wolfie said: The rules weren't intended to allow it to happen hence the original attempt to sign him was rejected. It was only when Lemon threatened legal action because the rules were so poorly written that it was finally allowed. No one was allowed to due it in the years prior and no one's allowed to do it now. That's why it's such a sore point with many. Expand It was allowed because it was legal, hence the rules have been written to make it illegal. So my point stands Lambert was signed before the play offs started, and was wrongly stopped from riding in leg 1. Let's remember Chris Louis at Ipswich had no issues with it, only those clubs who preferred to win rather than play by THE RULES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 2:44 PM, Gambo said: A guest who is eligible for the home leg (+5% of the missing rider's average) may therefore not be eligible for the away leg anyway. Expand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERACE Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 2:44 PM, Gambo said: A guest who is eligible for the home leg (+5% of the missing rider's average) may therefore not be eligible for the away leg anyway. Expand Correct. In fact I believe the rule is that a rider can only guest for 1 team in the play offs, so Chris Harris (if he rides tomorrow) can't guest for anyone in the final other than Ipswich (if the get through), but Ipswich could get 4 different guests (if required) as long as those guests haven't ridden for another team in the play offs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 2:44 PM, Gambo said: A guest who is eligible for the home leg (+5% of the missing rider's average) may therefore not be eligible for the away leg anyway. Expand That is what happened in 2018 which is why the agreement for Poole to use Morris and Kings Lynn to use Ellis came about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me wolfie Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 3:06 PM, foreverblue said: That is what happened in 2018 which is why the agreement for Poole to use Morris and Kings Lynn to use Ellis came about. Expand Quite sensible at the time as they were the only like for like guests available 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinker Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 Slightly off topic and not really making any major point here but all the injuries which have severely affected the play offs have not happened during either Premier or Championship League matches. Woofy, of course, was injured in the UK but this was whilst he was on GP duty but the remainder (as far as I can remember) have all been abroad in either the GP's/World Team Cup or the Polish leagues. Probably a lot more pressure riding in the Polish Leagues, more money of course but also more risky. Big fast tracks and higher speeds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me wolfie Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 2:56 PM, SUPERACE said: It was allowed because it was legal, hence the rules have been written to make it illegal. So my point stands Lambert was signed before the play offs started, and was wrongly stopped from riding in leg 1. Let's remember Chris Louis at Ipswich had no issues with it, only those clubs who preferred to win rather than play by THE RULES. Expand If you think they were the rules then carry on, shows your mentality really. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 2:09 PM, orion said: The sport was massive with guests years ago..the sport was taken seriously. then. People caring about guests is completely over stated. Expand Out of interest how many guests were permitted back in the day? I started going in the the early eighties and I can remember guests for number ones while everything else was covered by R/R and juniors. I could stomach that, it's when teams have been running with three, four and sometimes five riders borrowed from other teams that it gets silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinny Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 Guests have been a thing since I have been following the sport. The only difference is, back then it was very rare that a rider would be missing unless they were genuinely injured. Mike Coles, Phil Morris, Brent Werner, Neville Tatum, Colin White and Jan Pedersen were all regular guests for Newport in 1999 when Anders Henriksson and then Frank Smart were out injured. It has always been the case. What gets on my nerves is when riders are apparently injured, then ride in Sweden on a Tuesday and then are unfit to ride on a Wednesday for their British club before riding in Poland on the Sunday. There are only two solutions to stop all this. Either pay what Poland do OR ban any rider who races in Poland. Sadly, either option looks about as likely as Manchester United winning in Munich this evening! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Stanton Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 3:30 PM, Pinny said: Guests have been a thing since I have been following the sport. The only difference is, back then it was very rare that a rider would be missing unless they were genuinely injured. Mike Coles, Phil Morris, Brent Werner, Neville Tatum, Colin White and Jan Pedersen were all regular guests for Newport in 1999 when Anders Henriksson and then Frank Smart were out injured. It has always been the case. What gets on my nerves is when riders are apparently injured, then ride in Sweden on a Tuesday and then are unfit to ride on a Wednesday for their British club before riding in Poland on the Sunday. There are only two solutions to stop all this. Either pay what Poland do OR ban any rider who races in Poland. Sadly, either option looks about as likely as Manchester United winning in Munich this evening! Expand The single best gater I’ve ever seen! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 3:30 PM, Pinny said: Guests have been a thing since I have been following the sport. The only difference is, back then it was very rare that a rider would be missing unless they were genuinely injured. Mike Coles, Phil Morris, Brent Werner, Neville Tatum, Colin White and Jan Pedersen were all regular guests for Newport in 1999 when Anders Henriksson and then Frank Smart were out injured. It has always been the case. What gets on my nerves is when riders are apparently injured, then ride in Sweden on a Tuesday and then are unfit to ride on a Wednesday for their British club before riding in Poland on the Sunday. There are only two solutions to stop all this. Either pay what Poland do OR ban any rider who races in Poland. Sadly, either option looks about as likely as Manchester United winning in Munich this evening! Expand I especially like the last bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinny Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 3:34 PM, foreverblue said: I especially like the last bit! Expand We will probably go and beat them now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 3:19 PM, Bagpuss said: Out of interest how many guests were permitted back in the day? I started going in the the early eighties and I can remember guests for number ones while everything else was covered by R/R and juniors. I could stomach that, it's when teams have been running with three, four and sometimes five riders borrowed from other teams that it gets silly. Expand Cant remember a limit....you also had unlimited ts if 6 points behind lol..and the crowds were packed..The sport in terms of Mickey Mouse is the same as it ever was when the sport was massive..People over state the importance.. Its pretty simple with speedway..As the teams have weaken so have the crowds. . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERACE Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 3:18 PM, Call me wolfie said: If you think they were the rules then carry on, shows your mentality really. Expand This is you all over, you start to aggressive in any discussion you have. I try to deal in facts, Robert rode because it wasn't in the rules to stop him. If those rules have been written incorrectly that is not the fault of Belle Vue Speedway. Simply you don't like Belle Vue so it annoys you that the management were smart, they found a way it's what the best do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted September 20, 2023 Report Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/20/2023 at 3:36 PM, Pinny said: We will probably go and beat them now! Expand I would rather they didn't, come on Bayern and Harry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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