Bombers Pending Statement

[IainB]

45 minutes ago, GeneralMelchett said:

no last week, I just bought a copy today - will post a summary up later -

The suspense is killing me 

[GeneralMelchett]

21 minutes ago, iainb said:

The suspense is killing me 

Few things:

it starts with his son taking his first laps at leicester leads to him saying more needs to be done to encourage UK / British youngsters - he wants to see more made fom the RS scheme.

he goes onto say that at times over the last 25 years he felt he has been treated badly - he had always kept things to himself but now is the time to say stuff. Of the 13 clubs he has ridden for - 5 have gone forever!

He riles aginst the fact that riders can just be sacked on the whim of a promoter / fans he feels the security issue has gotten worse over the years with sides being chopped and changed often at a moments notice in the pursuit of glory. He cites various British riders as not being in teams at the start of the year or being sacked / dropped regularly - People like Drew Kemp, the Thompson Twins etc. He says that riders get banned for withholding services if they are owed money yet they can be sacked at a moments notice with absoluterly no rights in law - suggested he was owed and still is 18-20k by Rye House. He also says that contrracts heavily weighted in a promoters favour - they can be sacked for drugs / alcohol testing etc but makes no reference of being sacked for not scoring enough points yet it happens all the time.

He also said most riders want the ruling brought in that a big name star can't be brought in for the playoffs at the expensive of an existing no1, or existing rider. There is an assumption out there that this will quite probably happen again! This was described as top stars out 'trophy chasing' and 'money making'

Edited August 21, 2023 by GeneralMelchett

[IainB]

24 minutes ago, GeneralMelchett said:

Few things:

it starts with his son taking his first laps at leicester leads to him saying more needs to be done to encourage UK / British youngsters - he wants to see more made fom the RS scheme.

he goes onto say that at times over the last 25 years he felt he has been treated badly - he had always kept things to himself but now is the time to say stuff. Of the 13 clubs he has ridden for - 5 have gone forever!

He riles aginst the fact that riders can just be sacked on the whim of a promoter / fans he feels the security issue has gotten worse over the years with sides being chopped and changed often at a moments notice in the pursuit of glory. He cites various British riders as not being in teams at the start of the year or being sacked / dropped regularly - People like Drew Kemp, the Thompson Twins etc. He says that riders get banned for withholding services if they are owed money yet they can be sacked at a moments notice with absoluterly no rights in law - suggested he was owed and still is 18-20k by Rye House. He also says that contrracts heavily weighted in a promoters favour - they can be sacked for drugs / alcohol testing etc but makes no reference of being sacked for not scoring enough points yet it happens all the time.

He also said most riders want the ruling brought in that a big name star can't be brought in for the playoffs at the expensive of an existing no1, or existing rider. There is an assumption out there that this will quite probably happen again! This was described as top stars out 'trophy chasing' and 'money making'

Thanks for that... Sounds like a bit of a keyboard warrior 

We've been saying a lot of this for years, especially regarding the young kids. A lot of what he's saying smacks of self interest, of course he doesn't want a No1 being replaced, he wants to guest for every team in every leg of the finals

The riders only have themselves to blame nobody is holding a gun to their head to sign a contract, if he feels that strongly about it he should try and resurrect the Speedway riders union

[Fromafar]

18 minutes ago, iainb said:

Thanks for that... Sounds like a bit of a keyboard warrior 

We've been saying a lot of this for years, especially regarding the young kids. A lot of what he's saying smacks of self interest, of course he doesn't want a No1 being replaced, he wants to guest for every team in every leg of the finals

The riders only have themselves to blame nobody is holding a gun to their head to sign a contract, if he feels that strongly about it he should try and resurrect the Speedway riders union

 Basically,He only said what us “forum f#nnies” have been saying for years.Wonder if certain people will be calling him one now.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Fromafar

[szkocjasid]

8 hours ago, GeneralMelchett said:

Few things:

it starts with his son taking his first laps at leicester leads to him saying more needs to be done to encourage UK / British youngsters - he wants to see more made fom the RS scheme.

he goes onto say that at times over the last 25 years he felt he has been treated badly - he had always kept things to himself but now is the time to say stuff. Of the 13 clubs he has ridden for - 5 have gone forever!

He riles aginst the fact that riders can just be sacked on the whim of a promoter / fans he feels the security issue has gotten worse over the years with sides being chopped and changed often at a moments notice in the pursuit of glory. He cites various British riders as not being in teams at the start of the year or being sacked / dropped regularly - People like Drew Kemp, the Thompson Twins etc. He says that riders get banned for withholding services if they are owed money yet they can be sacked at a moments notice with absoluterly no rights in law - suggested he was owed and still is 18-20k by Rye House. He also says that contrracts heavily weighted in a promoters favour - they can be sacked for drugs / alcohol testing etc but makes no reference of being sacked for not scoring enough points yet it happens all the time.

He also said most riders want the ruling brought in that a big name star can't be brought in for the playoffs at the expensive of an existing no1, or existing rider. There is an assumption out there that this will quite probably happen again! This was described as top stars out 'trophy chasing' and 'money making'

I certainly agree with plenty of what he says, but why do riders sign these contracts that allow promoters fre reign to drop them on a whim. Obviously second strings and reserves can't hold clubs to ransom, but what's to stop an established heat leaders saying if I get dropped I want paid for 14 days? Once that becomes the norm, move onto second strings.

It's become clear in the Championship there's not enough heat leaders to go around, so clubs may be willing.

[szkocjasid]

8 hours ago, iainb said:

Thanks for that... Sounds like a bit of a keyboard warrior 

We've been saying a lot of this for years, especially regarding the young kids. A lot of what he's saying smacks of self interest, of course he doesn't want a No1 being replaced, he wants to guest for every team in every leg of the finals

The riders only have themselves to blame nobody is holding a gun to their head to sign a contract, if he feels that strongly about it he should try and resurrect the Speedway riders union

If every rider agreed to to sign such a one sided contract, clubs would have to re-negotiate.

I've often thought that as a rider who leaves a club gets a 28 day ban, should a club dropping a rider now pay him for any matches missed over the next 28 days? Unless they've found a new team. Wouldn't stop clubs trying to strengthen, but may limit like-for-like changes.

Of course they could start smaller with something like "each rider gets 6 matches guaranteed before he can be dropped"

[szkocjasid]

9 hours ago, GeneralMelchett said:

 He says that riders get banned for withholding services if they are owed money yet they can be sacked at a moments notice with absolutely no rights in law - suggested he was owed and still is 18-20k by Rye House.

I've often wondered why riders carry on when owed that much? Surely after £5000 you start to question when the money's coming. I'm positive a rider would certainly win any court case against the BSPL if they were banned for withholding their services after not being paid - would take a strong rider to make that stand though.

Last I can think of was Scott Nicholls when they wouldn't let him double up.

[tellboy]

8 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

I've often wondered why riders carry on when owed that much? Surely after £5000 you start to question when the money's coming. I'm positive a rider would certainly win any court case against the BSPL if they were banned for withholding their services after not being paid - would take a strong rider to make that stand though.

Last I can think of was Scott Nicholls when they wouldn't let him double up.

That's happened to several riders at different clubs.Thats why some riders have stayed loyal to Buster they know they get a lower deal money wise,but they know they will get paid all the time.Its tricky for a rider because obviously you want the most money on offer,but you probably run the risk of not getting paid.It is a stupid rule which has been around for a while.

[IainB]

9 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

I've often wondered why riders carry on when owed that much? Surely after £5000 you start to question when the money's coming. I'm positive a rider would certainly win any court case against the BSPL if they were banned for withholding their services after not being paid - would take a strong rider to make that stand though.

Last I can think of was Scott Nicholls when they wouldn't let him double up.

Unity is Strength 

[Odds On]

two ways of looking at this, now i would imagine there aren't many promoters if any making a profit out of the sport, so where does that golden egg come from?...we all know riders deserve a good crust for their bravery etc...however i think the day will come when a rider will not be able to do a deal for x amount each week/meeting/point...now lets say if the income average £5000 per meeting, the expenditure was £2000 per meeting that leaves £3000 profit per meeting, the promoter takes roughly 25% the remainder is spread then between the riders....any other way then the promoter see's himself in the position they are in now...offering good money in February only to find out in June they have done their proverbials...

[noaksey]

17 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

If every rider agreed to to sign such a one sided contract, clubs would have to re-negotiate.

I've often thought that as a rider who leaves a club gets a 28 day ban, should a club dropping a rider now pay him for any matches missed over the next 28 days? Unless they've found a new team. Wouldn't stop clubs trying to strengthen, but may limit like-for-like changes.

Of course they could start smaller with something like "each rider gets 6 matches guaranteed before he can be dropped"

So Leicester would pay Batchelor something for each match they ride within 28 days of him being released in addition to the 7 riders they already need to pay?

 

 

 

[Call me wolfie]

15 minutes ago, noaksey said:

So Leicester would pay Batchelor something for each match they ride within 28 days of him being released in addition to the 7 riders they already need to pay?

 

 

 

Would lead to more postponements would it not?

[noaksey]

2 minutes ago, Call me wolfie said:

Would lead to more postponements would it not?

A good way of increasing costs or postponements 

[szkocjasid]

2 hours ago, noaksey said:

So Leicester would pay Batchelor something for each match they ride within 28 days of him being released in addition to the 7 riders they already need to pay?

 

2 hours ago, Call me wolfie said:

Would lead to more postponements would it not?

 

2 hours ago, noaksey said:

A good way of increasing costs or postponements 

I'm what other job, can you fire someone at such short notice with no compensation? Riders may have mortgages etc but get dropped at a seconds notice, even if they've upped their averages (not Batchelor, Joe T at Scunny for example).

[foreverblue]

4 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

 

 

I'm what other job, can you fire someone at such short notice with no compensation? Riders may have mortgages etc but get dropped at a seconds notice, even if they've upped their averages (not Batchelor, Joe T at Scunny for example).

I would have thought most run of the mill self employed jobs , if you don't work you don't get paid.

[szkocjasid]

15 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

I'm what other job, can you fire someone at such short notice with no compensation? Riders may have mortgages etc but get dropped at a seconds notice, even if they've upped their averages (not Batchelor, Joe T at Scunny for example).

 

8 minutes ago, foreverblue said:

I would have thought most run of the mill self employed jobs , if you don't work you don't get paid.

But in those jobs, you can leave of your own volition and work elsewhere at a moment's notice, so it's even. In Speedway you'd get banned for 28 days for leaving. So heavily sided against the riders.

Edited August 22, 2023 by szkocjasid
Spelling

[foreverblue]

1 minute ago, szkocjasid said:

 

But in those, you can leave of your own volition and work elsewhere at a moment's notice, so it's even. In Speedway you'd get banned for 28 days for leaving. So heavily against the riders.

Yes true but not many riders are out of work too long.

[GeneralMelchett]

1 hour ago, szkocjasid said:

 

 

I'm what other job, can you fire someone at such short notice with no compensation? Riders may have mortgages etc but get dropped at a seconds notice, even if they've upped their averages (not Batchelor, Joe T at Scunny for example).

I have never seen a speedway riders contract - however I have seen footballers contracts (ex premier league from 15-20 years ago) and I was always amazed how basic they were. I suspect a speedway contract isn’t that complex - I am sure all contracts are entered into in good faith at the start!! It will probably say something about best endeavours at all times and cover rates of pay and travel costs etc etc 

Not paying a rider is a breach of contact - as is ‘withholding services’ regardless of why that occurred -  one break of contact can’t be fixed by another if you get what I mean / they would be considered and treated as separate breaches from either party. that’s if my contract law learning from 30 years ago still holds!
 

Some breaches would be considered minor and redeemable such as paying late - some would be deemed completely lost now such as a Bomber and his 20k from Rye House - he could sue for it but whether he would get anything is another matter. Most riders being paid late will be presented I imagine as ‘oh cheques in the post’ - Although I do suspect some cash maybe involved somewhere in some cases! 
 

So if  you are paid late would you go to the extent of breach of contract by withholding your services if payment was  being made a bit late due to cashflow issues etc. also if you ride for 2 clubs you won’t risk a ban for withholding your services from one club when still riding for the other. 

Sadly we see football clubs doing this quite a lot at the moment. Players play on! although not for two clubs at the same time! 
 

A top rider won’t have any real issue maybe finding another club to ride for but others lower down the chain may well do and not have the financial resources ‘to ride out’ a period of unemployment - afterall in lockdown there were all kinds of stories of riders getting jobs as delivery drivers etc to make ends meet!

this all reminds me a little of the issue with  Uber and the status in law of their drivers - Uber said they were all self employed - the law said different and minimum rights were extended to them if I recall it correctly. 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by GeneralMelchett

[1 valve]

14 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

 

 

I'm what other job, can you fire someone at such short notice with no compensation? Riders may have mortgages etc but get dropped at a seconds notice, even if they've upped their averages (not Batchelor, Joe T at Scunny for example).

Fundamentally, a full or part time employee can see their employment terminated by the employer without reason within the first six months of their engagement. However, speedway riders are not employees of the promotion but contractors (self-employed) and if the contract they signed allows for immediate cancelation by the promoter for the rider to ride for the club without explanation or compensation, then it is entirely legitimate to do so. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by 1 valve

[1 valve]

13 hours ago, GeneralMelchett said:

I have never seen a speedway riders contract - however I have seen footballers contracts (ex premier league from 15-20 years ago) and I was always amazed how basic they were.

 

FYI. - Today, the basic FA contract as used by many lower tier clubs including part time is indeed a simple document albeit if the player is full time then there are a number of pages included to cover full time employment law etc. 

However, the premier league player contract is as a minimum, 28 pages. In addition to these pages, the terms and conditions of the contract form part of a number of collective agreements between the Club (through the League) and the Player (through the PFA) affecting the Player’s employment. Further provisions are included which are additional or supplemental (say, image rights, media responsibilities, international representation, transfer of contract, tax arrangements etc) to those set out as basic remuneration and can run to many pages. Finally, details are also included of the players representative, (agent) his/her eligibility and remuneration arrangements, ditto if the club also used an intermediary .

It is quite common for a Premier League player contract to run to more than 40 pages hence why a significant amount of time is spent by the players agent and the club in preparing the final version for the player to sign and witnessed (also by parent/guardian if the player is under 18) 
The contract is then registered with the English Football Association (The FA) and automatically aligned to the umbrella organisations namely UEFA & FIFA for rules regulations regarding transfers and international eligibility - to name a few. 

Speedway promotions  engage self employed riders via contracts which are in themselves straightforward and arguably are in preference to the promoters requirements rather than  that of the rider and in the UK solely governed by UK law, albeit the sport itself (rules regulations for meetings) is aligned on a global scale via the Speedway Control Board (SCB) to the Federation Internationale de lautomobile (FIM). 
  

Edited August 23, 2023 by 1 valve