UK Speedway in Turmoil?

[truthsayer]

1 hour ago, HGould said:

The sooner the reality (as some have suggested) that it adopts the MX SuperMX model the better. The thoughts though of filling indoor Stadia with a Speedway product are pie in the sky.

 

 

Stadium motocross (Supercross) and arena motocross (Arenacross) audiences are not much to shout about in the UK. I'd doubt they make money.

The benefit motocross has is a fairly solid participation base, and products made by mainstream motorcycle brands.

I am a lifelong speedway fan and I find the team sport thing tenuous. I can’t believe today’s more sophisticated consumer will buy into it.

The interaction between team mates in speedway is negligible. They are just a bunch of individuals who wear the same colour and the team that wins is the one whose individuals score the most points collectively. Compare this to real team sports, where the individuals work closely together. They pass a ball between each other, with players having a specialist role to play. I just don’t get it.

I get how it could have been in the past. People were less discerning. Teams were more stable and often more local, so there was a connection with the individuals that made up the team.

Even in some of the sports which have huge emphasis on the team (think Formula One and cycling, a la Tour de France) the focus is on the individuals. Real teams, like national teams as seen at the recent World Cup, interests me a bit, but personally I just want to see riders racing for themselves and would see that as a future to introduce new spectators, and riders, to the sport.

Speedway needs to start at the ground up, as an individual amateur sport. League speedway can still have a place, but it has to be commercially viable and a separate entity to the individual sport.

[steve roberts]

29 minutes ago, truthsayer said:

Stadium motocross (Supercross) and arena motocross (Arenacross) audiences are not much to shout about in the UK. I'd doubt they make money.

The benefit motocross has is a fairly solid participation base, and products made by mainstream motorcycle brands.

I am a lifelong speedway fan and I find the team sport thing tenuous. I can’t believe today’s more sophisticated consumer will buy into it.

The interaction between team mates in speedway is negligible. They are just a bunch of individuals who wear the same colour and the team that wins is the one whose individuals score the most points collectively. Compare this to real team sports, where the individuals work closely together. They pass a ball between each other, with players having a specialist role to play. I just don’t get it.

I get how it could have been in the past. People were less discerning. Teams were more stable and often more local, so there was a connection with the individuals that made up the team.

Even in some of the sports which have huge emphasis on the team (think Formula One and cycling, a la Tour de France) the focus is on the individuals. Real teams, like national teams as seen at the recent World Cup, interests me a bit, but personally I just want to see riders racing for themselves and would see that as a future to introduce new spectators, and riders, to the sport.

Speedway needs to start at the ground up, as an individual amateur sport. League speedway can still have a place, but it has to be commercially viable and a separate entity to the individual sport.

Absolutely. It's an interesting analogy because when speedway was first introduced to these shores individual meetings were the norm and altough initial interest was huge people soon grew tired of that concept and team speedway was introduced. Not sure if going back to an individual format would be the answer but that's just my opinion as we now live in a very different world and expectations I guess are different?

[truthsayer]

19 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Absolutely. It's an interesting analogy because when speedway was first introduced to these shores individual meetings were the norm and altough initial interest was huge people soon grew tired of that concept and team speedway was introduced. Not sure if going back to an individual format would be the answer but that's just my opinion as we now live in a very different world and expectations I guess are different?

I think you're kind of right on this, in as much as the diehard support wants team racing and turning that off would be the final nail in the coffin right now.

But the challenge, as much as getting new supporters, is getting new riders. And there's little opportunity for riders to enjoy speedway as a sport. If you're not in a team, there's nothing and that remains a major barrier to getting riders into the sport. If you don't want to race team speedway, there's no place in the sport for you. And that's wrong for a motorsport.

I believe team speedway still has a significant part to play in a future of speedway, but only a part, and only alongside a solid foundation of a motorsport with high participation. Right now the business model is ALL about getting spectators along to watch team speedway at legacy venues, in a legacy format. So the survival of speedway depends on league speedway and that's wrong, and dangerous. 

If professional cycling/football/rugby collapsed, the sport would still exist and a rebuild could take place. When professional speedway dies (and it will, soon) there will be nothing left upon which to rebuild the sport.

Edited August 4, 2023 by truthsayer
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[Chris116]

There have been a number of comments about racing on tarmac. When Wimbledon stadium was in its last months Spedeworth, the stock car promotion, had a number of speedway riders have a last ride around the track during a stock car meeting. Gordon Kennett showed everyone just how to slide around the bends on a tarmac track and looked as if he was on a slick track.

The video is on YouTube https://youtu.be/72e5JMM3abI

Edited August 4, 2023 by Chris116
Added link to YouTube

[iris123]

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

There have been a number of comments about racing on tarmac. When Wimbledon stadium was in its last months Spedeworth, the stock car promotion, had a number of speedway riders have a last ride around the track during a stock car meeting. Gordon Kennett showed everyone just how to slide around the bends on a tarmac track and looked as if he was on a slick track.

The video is on YouTube https://youtu.be/72e5JMM3abI

Yes, well done to Gordon. Been out a long time and was the only one really giving it a go. Sure my cousin was also out on track with him. But nobody is going to pay good money to watch 4 riders going round like that, surely ?

[JamesHarris]

9 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Absolutely. It's an interesting analogy because when speedway was first introduced to these shores individual meetings were the norm and altough initial interest was huge people soon grew tired of that concept and team speedway was introduced. Not sure if going back to an individual format would be the answer but that's just my opinion as we now live in a very different world and expectations I guess are different?

I think a mix of both individual and team would be good. As someone has already pointed out the British system at the moment is solely focussed on an outdated two team format. This format obviously does work well in Poland and Sweden but am I right in suggesting they are run as motorsport clubs rather than a promotion? With it looking likely that there will be less teams operating here next year perhaps it is the time to run the league on a four team tournament  format so you're having the best of both? 

I do remember back in the day we used to have a lot of prestigious individual open meetings. I'm not saying that if we had these again the promoters should be throwing money around to bring in the GP riders (they'd be broke within a month) but it would be a good way to include tourist riders or Scandinavians and Continentals looking to put themselves out there. Always generated interest amongst the punters when an unsigned Danish youngsters turned up for an open meeting.  

[steve roberts]

Just now, JamesHarris said:

I think a mix of both individual and team would be good. As someone has already pointed out the British system at the moment is solely focussed on an outdated two team format. This format obviously does work well in Poland and Sweden but am I right in suggesting they are run as motorsport clubs rather than a promotion? With it looking likely that there will be less teams operating here next year perhaps it is the time to run the league on a four team tournament  format so you're having the best of both? 

I do remember back in the day we used to have a lot of prestigious individual open meetings. I'm not saying that if we had these again the promoters should be throwing money around to bring in the GP riders (they'd be broke within a month) but it would be a good way to include tourist riders or Scandinavians and Continentals looking to put themselves out there. Always generated interest amongst the punters when an unsigned Danish youngsters turned up for an open meeting.  

Yes I remember most tracks would stage at least one big meeting a season and I personally used to enjoy travelling to various events however fans began to be less inclined to watch them and slowly they were dropped from the programme more's the pity. The BLRC was one of the biggest events of the season but even riders towards the end became choosy as regards putting in an appearance. Perhaps it's time to re-introduce a bit of variety again (4TT, Best Pairs and Test Matches?) in the way that you have suggested?

[enotian]

9 hours ago, truthsayer said:

Stadium motocross (Supercross) and arena motocross (Arenacross) audiences are not much to shout about in the UK. I'd doubt they make money.

The benefit motocross has is a fairly solid participation base, and products made by mainstream motorcycle brands.

I am a lifelong speedway fan and I find the team sport thing tenuous. I can’t believe today’s more sophisticated consumer will buy into it.

The interaction between team mates in speedway is negligible. They are just a bunch of individuals who wear the same colour and the team that wins is the one whose individuals score the most points collectively. Compare this to real team sports, where the individuals work closely together. They pass a ball between each other, with players having a specialist role to play. I just don’t get it.

I get how it could have been in the past. People were less discerning. Teams were more stable and often more local, so there was a connection with the individuals that made up the team.

Even in some of the sports which have huge emphasis on the team (think Formula One and cycling, a la Tour de France) the focus is on the individuals. Real teams, like national teams as seen at the recent World Cup, interests me a bit, but personally I just want to see riders racing for themselves and would see that as a future to introduce new spectators, and riders, to the sport.

Speedway needs to start at the ground up, as an individual amateur sport. League speedway can still have a place, but it has to be commercially viable and a separate entity to the individual sport.

you're right. it's a little like when they do team events in snooker and darts etc.  it's really just individuals doing their own thing which consequently is added to another individuals contribution. there's no real in game interaction.

however, that's not quite true for speedway team racing or pairs. or at least it shouldn't be because in those events the art of team riding on track is one of the greatest examples of team work in all of sports. it just doesn't happen anymore!!!

and that's purely down to the pay per point system adopted imo. why would a rider jeopardise being paid for three points by slowing down to help a team mate score more points. there's no incentive whatsoever. just go and score as many points as you can to earn as much as you can. if the team wins great if it doesn't nevermind.

what if instead of pay per point each heat had a prize pot? a team who wins the heat takes the prize pot, if it's drawn the prize pot is shared. each team then decides how they split the total prize money. a little like tour cycling albeit those riders are salaried. 

in reality supporting any team is the ultimate in living vicariously. claiming victory off the back of the team you support winning, feeling superior to the opposition supporters when in reality you contributed absolutely nothing to the victory. you wouldn't claim to be an amazing chef if you bought a nice meal at a restaurant.

but there's just something about nailing your colours to a mast and putting your hopes and dreams in the hands of your favourite team. it would be a shame if that element disappeared from speedway in this country.

 

 

 

[IainB]

11 hours ago, JamesHarris said:

I think a mix of both individual and team would be good. As someone has already pointed out the British system at the moment is solely focussed on an outdated two team format. This format obviously does work well in Poland and Sweden but am I right in suggesting they are run as motorsport clubs rather than a promotion? With it looking likely that there will be less teams operating here next year perhaps it is the time to run the league on a four team tournament  format so you're having the best of both? 

I do remember back in the day we used to have a lot of prestigious individual open meetings. I'm not saying that if we had these again the promoters should be throwing money around to bring in the GP riders (they'd be broke within a month) but it would be a good way to include tourist riders or Scandinavians and Continentals looking to put themselves out there. Always generated interest amongst the punters when an unsigned Danish youngsters turned up for an open meeting.  

I think the key is staging events the riders want to ride in and the punters want to pay to watch,  obvious really and not rocket science. Events like the, I'm going to call it, first division riders championship and pairs where riders are "forced" to ride for a fixed BSPL rate means that riders don't really want to ride in it and therefore come up with any excuse under the sun not to ride in it devaluing the competition which in turn puts the fans off.

Events like the Peter Craven Memorial Trophy held at Belle Vue really seems to have built up some prestige around it. It's run a little differently with a 5 rider semi and 6 rider final, which is truly spectacular, obviously most tracks it's probably not safe to do that but there are a number of different formats that could be run, you've just got to think outside of the box a little bit.

Edited August 5, 2023 by iainb

[steve roberts]

58 minutes ago, iainb said:

I think the key is staging events the riders want to ride in and the punters want to pay to watch,  obvious really and not rocket science. Events like the, I'm going to call it, first division riders championship and pairs where riders are "forced" to ride for a fixed BSPL rate means that riders don't really want to ride in it and therefore come up with any excuse under the sun not to ride in it devaluing the competition which in turn puts the fans off.

Events like the Peter Craven Memorial Trophy held at Belle Vue really seems to have built up some prestige around it. It's run a little differently with a 5 rider semi and 6 rider final, which is truly spectacular, obviously most tracks it's probably not safe to do that but there are a number of different formats that could be run, you've just got to think outside of the box a little bit.

I used to enjoy watching the variety of meetings served up (4TT, Pairs, Individual,Test Matches...but not 3TT!) but ultimately team meetings was my preferred choice. Trouble was that the punters turned their backs on the various disciplines and many promoters ultimately pulled the plug. Perhaps it's time to "re-invent" these formants in one way or another hoping to reinvigorate the imagination?

I recall the 16 Lapper held at Ipswich and Swindon which initially proved successful and I remember going to at least two at Swindon.

Edited August 5, 2023 by steve roberts

[IainB]

23 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I used to enjoy watching the variety of meetings served up (4TT, Pairs, Individual,Test Matches...but not 3TT!) but ultimately team meetings was my preferred choice. Trouble was that the punters turned their backs on the various disciplines and many promoters ultimately pulled the plug. Perhaps it's time to "re-invent" these formants in one way or another hoping to reinvigorate the imagination?

I recall the 16 Lapper held at Ipswich and Swindon which initially proved successful and I remember going to at least two at Swindon.

I'd say the punters turned their backs on the BSPL run "shared events", probably because they weren't paying enough, this probably impacted on other events. The PCMT shows that if an event is run properly, the right rates are paid, at the right time of the season the punters will turn up

[Hawk127]

11 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I used to enjoy watching the variety of meetings served up (4TT, Pairs, Individual,Test Matches...but not 3TT!) but ultimately team meetings was my preferred choice. Trouble was that the punters turned their backs on the various disciplines and many promoters ultimately pulled the plug. Perhaps it's time to "re-invent" these formants in one way or another hoping to reinvigorate the imagination?

Looking back at some of the big individual meetings, many were sponsored by well know names and as such the rider rewards were much greater and the big names wanted to take part which In turn attracted more punters through the gates. If you could get some decent sponsors with some top class riders from Europe to take part because it would be financially worthwhile and stream the meeting on YouTube or similar then it might work but it would take some organising by track owners/promoters and that in itself might be a major sticking point. They probably cannot be bothered.

Team racing does have a role but team riding does not exist as we once knew it. Every rider generally looks out for number one.

The Poles have dragged the sport up to a level which attracts big money, so it can be done with enough appetite to succeed and while it may not reach the meteoric state in this country that the Poles have, unless people start to look at what you could do rather than look for obstacles all the time the sport is doomed.

Many supporters did use to look forward to the individual meetings and that had a lot to do with the fact that you had so many characters riding, favourite heat leaders, up and coming number 6 and 7 riders who sometimes got lucky against big names and you would get to see overseas riders. Then you had some real classics like the 16  Lapper at Ipswich which was a real spectacle.

It needs a concerted effort to up the game in this country because with fewer and fewer meetings, the cost per meeting goes up as the stadium owners are not going to reduce the annual rental to accommodate a sport that cannot get its house in order and run a decent business. You are already seeing signs of reduced meetings with stadiums taking on other sources of income and speedway falls down the list as a priority client.

Speedway needs to change or it will soon be a fond memory.

[enotian]

4 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I used to enjoy watching the variety of meetings served up (4TT, Pairs, Individual,Test Matches...but not 3TT!) but ultimately team meetings was my preferred choice. Trouble was that the punters turned their backs on the various disciplines and many promoters ultimately pulled the plug. Perhaps it's time to "re-invent" these formants in one way or another hoping to reinvigorate the imagination?

same

always wondered why team matches are almost always run using the same format within any given season, with the current format prevalent for a number of years now, more or less.

in a world of A and B fixtures you'd have thought a different format might add some intrigue.  It's no wonder people stopped attending cup ties when its perhaps the third match between the same teams using the same format.  Especially when the current 15 heat format can be somewhat predictable.

i've said before that if the future is streaming then the events you stream need to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, i.e. more than two teams, so maybe 4TT or pairs is the way to go. basically the more teams being represented the wider the possible streaming audience. include nomad teams from defunct tracks. whilst the affiliation would be tenuous at best I might be tempted to cheer on (i.e. stream) a Diamonds branded pair or team if it was a legit competition even if they never had a home fixture.  

[steve roberts]

26 minutes ago, enotian said:

same

always wondered why team matches are almost always run using the same format within any given season, with the current format prevalent for a number of years now, more or less.

in a world of A and B fixtures you'd have thought a different format might add some intrigue.  It's no wonder people stopped attending cup ties when its perhaps the third match between the same teams using the same format.  Especially when the current 15 heat format can be somewhat predictable.

i've said before that if the future is streaming then the events you stream need to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, i.e. more than two teams, so maybe 4TT or pairs is the way to go. basically the more teams being represented the wider the possible streaming audience. include nomad teams from defunct tracks. whilst the affiliation would be tenuous at best I might be tempted to cheer on (i.e. stream) a Diamonds branded pair or team if it was a legit competition even if they never had a home fixture.  

I remember that League Cup and KO Cup matches during the late seventies/early eighties ran over 16 heats whilst the league remained over 13 heats. The National League also ran to a different heat formula during that period if I recall?

Edited August 5, 2023 by steve roberts

[midlandred]

I still can’t get my head around the idea that streaming is the answer, when all that does is take away the spectators paying their entrance money at the tracks

[steve roberts]

10 minutes ago, midlandred said:

I still can’t get my head around the idea that streaming is the answer, when all that does is take away the spectators paying their entrance money at the tracks

...I was a bit like that with SKY "LIve" meetings one argument being that it would attract sponsorship which it never really succeeded.

Edited August 5, 2023 by steve roberts

[truthsayer]

11 minutes ago, midlandred said:

I still can’t get my head around the idea that streaming is the answer, when all that does is take away the spectators paying their entrance money at the tracks

It's a conundrum for speedway.

In theory the bigger audience will always be the TV audience, which attracts sponsors and advertisers - making the trackside audience less relevant - and in some cases subscribers pay to watch. It also (again theoretically) promotes the sport, which should mean more people will go along to watch live anyway. But there are no guarantees.

It works for a lot of sport, at the elite level. Darts would probably be the most obvious example of this which, like snooker and pool, is easier to present than speedway.

It's chicken and egg. It will be tough for speedway, because it's hard to imagine the streaming audience will be anything like enough to attract sponsors, while it would likely have a negative effect on the paying spectators.

Many sports promoters actually produce their own broadcast package, which they sell to broadcasters around the world. Eurosport (now WBD) actually promote some of the sports they broadcast, including speedway world championships. What makes them attractive promoters is the very fact they are TV production companies, with distribution platforms in place.

Being honest, I am not sure how the business model transfers to British speedway - but then again the current one isn't working.

[bruno]

Maybe league meetings should be 4 teams in a meeting with 5 riders over 16 heats. 20 would be better but most tracks would take 3 hours. Needs less riders so possibly do away with guests. Might seem radical but something needs doing. After more or less a lifetime of following the sport I'm thinking I'm on my final stretch with it now. 

[Humphrey Appleby]

1 hour ago, bruno said:

Maybe league meetings should be 4 teams in a meeting with 5 riders over 16 heats. 20 would be better but most tracks would take 3 hours. Needs less riders so possibly do away with guests. Might seem radical but something needs doing. After more or less a lifetime of following the sport I'm thinking I'm on my final stretch with it now. 

Running 4TTs would mean promoters would only have income from 1 home meeting in 4, there would be more riders to pay, and as you say more heats.

No matter how many riders you have in a team, someone will get injured and you'll still have to replace them somehow, except that one rider will now represent 25% of your lineup rather than 14% of it, so the relatively impact will be greater on your team.

On another note, if speedway can't run 20 heats in under 2 hours, turn it really sums up what's wrong with the sport.

[truthsayer]

1 minute ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

On another note, if speedway can't run 20 heats in under 2 hours, turn it really sums up what's wrong with the sport.

20 heats in two hours is still only one race every six minutes.

It needs to be better than that to capture the imagination of a trackside audience.