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UK Speedway in Turmoil?


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needs tough decisions unpopular with riders and some fans. The day 4 valves came in was the beginning of the bike wagging the rider so to speak. 90pc of fans couldn't give a moneys about the bikes, just want decent racing at a price we can afford. 

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2 hours ago, ch958 said:

needs tough decisions unpopular with riders and some fans. The day 4 valves came in was the beginning of the bike wagging the rider so to speak. 90pc of fans couldn't give a moneys about the bikes, just want decent racing at a price we can afford. 

I presume you don't mean the 4 valve Rudge in 1929?

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13 minutes ago, ch958 said:

funny - just what this debate needs

Your comment didn't add to the debate in any way. Now if you'd qualified your statement by saying '... because' then maybe it could be taken seriously.

As it was it just comes across as 'old man shouting at cloud'.

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56 minutes ago, truthsayer said:

Your comment didn't add to the debate in any way. Now if you'd qualified your statement by saying '... because' then maybe it could be taken seriously.

As it was it just comes across as 'old man shouting at cloud'.

if thats what you take from it, fine. My point was and is that the 'progress' in machinery means nowt to fans and merely adds huge costs that the sport cannot afford. It certainly adds nothing to the racing. 

Edited by ch958
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23 minutes ago, ch958 said:

if thats what you take from it, fine. My point was and is that the 'progress' in machinery means nowt to fans and merely adds huge costs that the sport cannot afford. It certainly adds nothing to the racing. 

FWIW I agree with you. There's no need for such expensive equipment if it was standardised. It would save costs and possibly even improve the show.

But four-valve engines aren't the cause. Progress is. If rules stated 'two valves only' then we'd still be riding just as highly-tuned and expensive engines - the only difference is that they would have two-valves rather than four. People want a competitive edge and will spend to do so, and will push the rules as far as they can. 

A standard engine, two-valves or four, is in theory the solution but the sport couldn't afford it as a rule change. Someone would need to buy them. Current journeymen would probably quit because of the investment. Current equipment would become obsolete and worthless and the cost to police it would likely be prohibitive. Although, in theory, it would save money the investment needed would be beyond most stakeholders currently involved in the sport.

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1 hour ago, truthsayer said:

FWIW I agree with you. There's no need for such expensive equipment if it was standardised. It would save costs and possibly even improve the show.

The sports governors could set a date for it to be enforced, giving people time to understand it and adapt. I don’t mean months, for example the 2025 season.

I believe it’s needed so money can be invested elsewhere. Such as stand alone stadia and possibly short term cheaper admissions.

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4 hours ago, ch958 said:

funny - just what this debate needs

Obviously I was being facetious but I don't want that particular fact to be forgotten.

With regard to modern 4-valvers, I don't think the number of valves per se is the issue. Weslakes and first generation Jawa 4-valves really didn't seem markedly different to the 2-valves (they sounded similar and track records were not being obliterated for instance) and still suited the tracks of the time. It's the evolution of them into the high revving laydowns that aren't suited to current tracks that sees us where we are now.

Edited by Sotonian
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Four valve engines didn’t cause stadia to be sold for development, nor for the sport to fail to invest in practice facilities. Nor did it have influence on the development of the internet or satellite Tb, or the other choices keeping people away from speedway.

highly tuned engines do add unnecessary cost for competitors. Many motorsports have brought in standardised motors. The system used in Moto2, where teams lease sealed engines would be a good system but right now that’s the last of speedway’s problems.

if you had a five year plan, it would be part of it though.

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agree its not the no1 problem. I prob posted 2 years ago that we're in survival mode and we still are and costs to riders get knocked on as salary demands and then knocked on as entrance fees so they are linked. Its a hoary old chestnut but admission fees have to be linked to what folk will stand versus what else they could get for 20 quid. 12 or 15 quid and its an easier decision so, somehow, costs of running would need to accommodate that and it prob doesn't allow for flying GP stars in to ride in front of 3 figure crowds. Like I said originally, tough unpopular decisions needed. 

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7 hours ago, truthsayer said:

Four valve engines didn’t cause stadia to be sold for development, nor for the sport to fail to invest in practice facilities. Nor did it have influence on the development of the internet or satellite Tb, or the other choices keeping people away from speedway.

highly tuned engines do add unnecessary cost for competitors. Many motorsports have brought in standardised motors. The system used in Moto2, where teams lease sealed engines would be a good system but right now that’s the last of speedway’s problems.

if you had a five year plan, it would be part of it though.

That's the crux...highly tuned engines that are costing more to maintain and the only people making any money are the tuners? Riders then expect to be paid more to off-set the rising costs of maintenance which is then reflected in admission prices when attendances are falling dramatically...it's a vicious circle. Recall Terry Betts commenting that his two valve Jawa required very little attention between meetings and he only stripped the engine down after a good number of meetings. Now bikes are stripped down after every meeting.

Edited by steve roberts
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41 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

That's the crux...highly tuned engines that are costing more to maintain and the only people making any money are the tuners? Riders then expect to be paid more to off-set the rising costs of maintenance which is then reflected in admission prices when attendances are falling dramatically...it's a vicious circle. Recall Terry Betts commenting that his two valve Jawa required very little attention between meetings and he only stripped the engine down after a good number of meetings. Now bikes are stripped down after every meeting.

I believe after around 30 races, the bikes of today  are "serviced", which means an engine strip,  tolerances measured and re build with new parts where needed. There's a great vid out there, showing what it entails. I'll try and find it. Here it is. Very interesting imho. And well worth a watch..

 

Edited by Bald Bloke
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30 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

That's the crux...highly tuned engines that are costing more to maintain and the only people making any money are the tuners? Riders then expect to be paid more to off-set the rising costs of maintenance which is then reflected in admission prices when attendances are falling dramatically...it's a vicious circle. Recall Terry Betts commenting that his two valve Jawa required very little attention between meetings and he only stripped the engine down after a good number of meetings. Now bikes are stripped down after every meeting.

I would see no reason why a motor couldn't do 120 races between rebuilds. A system where a tuner/prep company tenders for a contract to supply all riders in official races would be the way forward. All engines identical, to the tendered spec, tested, sealed and allocated at random. Motors leased by the riders and swapped when the service level is met. Rider can adjust gearing, fuelling and ignition, but nothing internal. It's a formula used by other sports and reduces costs and increases fairness.

It would be my strategy if I was starting a speedway league today, but it's the least of the problems faced by British speedway at this time. As part of a five year plan though, it would be integral.

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2 minutes ago, ch958 said:

got to start somewhere Truthy

Speedway has to rip pretty much everything up and start again though.

There are a lot of really great ideas shared on this forum, the problem is that it's just too far gone. Speedway is in survival model and the promotors all have different agendas.

If you started with a clean sheet of part you'd do it so differently, with many of these great ideas. All we're doing though is rearranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship.

Venues, local rider development and reducing costs are all core to developing a 'new' speedway. They need to go hand in hand and a half assed attempt at one thing won't touch the sides. Then you have the quality of the product and promotion, which are all huge aspects in themselves.

It also won't happen without investment, and won't happen overnight. Speedway has no money and little time. A five-year plan is of no use to a promotor who is praying to get through the next five days.

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2 hours ago, Bald Bloke said:

I believe after around 30 races, the bikes of today  are "serviced", which means an engine strip,  tolerances measured and re build with new parts where needed. There's a great vid out there, showing what it entails. I'll try and find it. Here it is. Very interesting imho. And well worth a watch..

 

Fascinating stuff...just goes to demonstrate what's involved today and questions whether it's sustainable under the current climate?

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14 hours ago, truthsayer said:

I would see no reason why a motor couldn't do 120 races between rebuilds. A system where a tuner/prep company tenders for a contract to supply all riders in official races would be the way forward. All engines identical, to the tendered spec, tested, sealed and allocated at random. Motors leased by the riders and swapped when the service level is met. Rider can adjust gearing, fuelling and ignition, but nothing internal. It's a formula used by other sports and reduces costs and increases fairness.

It would be my strategy if I was starting a speedway league today, but it's the least of the problems faced by British speedway at this time. As part of a five year plan though, it would be integral.

Im sure i recall those innovative people over on IOW running a stock engine meeting a season or two ago (Jawa's?) where engines were drawn on lots a fitted to the machines that day. Yes there were inevitable teething problems like requiring a different front pipe and the condition of coils supplied with each engine varied but the concept was sound. 

Would certainly need a strong amount of time to prepare though as it would require a fair of engines to cater for just the UK and the GTR debacle showed the investment needed and timescales required.

On the other side the final season with current engines would be quite hilarious as riders would stop getting them serviced knowing they will be redundant and worthless at the end of the season and run them all on until they blow up.

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Arguing about 4 valves and engine rebuilds is so far from what is wrong.

Constantly debating an irrelevance is pointless.

Apart from immediate discussions on restructuring for 2024, anything else is a waste of time.

Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Peterborough and Kings Lynn are but a few who are on the rack and potentially more.

Only a handful of tracks are presently sustainable, but they also need to change and adapt to what the paying fans want to keep them coming.

The restructuring in 1964 paved the way for a successful season in 1965 and onto its dizzy heights.

2023 will be a defining year for restructure of every aspect of what we call speedway in the UK.

It must start now by every promoter accepting the catastrophic way it is so poorly run and accept responsibility for the decline.

Forget about 3 tiers in the UK and all promoters get together with people who care and can help and sort it out NOW.

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