Leicester vs Peterborough 06/07/23 PREMIERSHIP R2

[W9 Lion]

3 minutes ago, iainb said:

If only Leicesters budget extended to a clock...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jhering-Timing-Running-Countdown-Digital/dp/B09LHW5P2R/ref=sr_1_117?crid=1ABHH8MZTQQ1V&keywords=large+timer+for+classroom&qid=1688720484&sprefix=large+timer%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-117

A clock is not the issue. Being able to wire it into the refs control panel is the issue. We have the display already.

[IainB]

7 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:

A clock is not the issue. Being able to wire it into the refs control panel is the issue. We have the display already.

it's remote controlled... all it needs is for somebody (start marshal?) to start the countdown when the 2 mins is put on by the ref, this is not rocket science 

[W9 Lion]

31 minutes ago, iainb said:

it's remote controlled... all it needs is for somebody (start marshal?) to start the countdown when the 2 mins is put on by the ref, this is not rocket science 

No, it needs to be wired into the clock on the refs control box so that its controlled by the ref.

[1 valve]

2 hours ago, Flappy said:

Because there's nothing to buy it he'll hand it over that's a different conversation for people 

If there’s nothing to buy then there’s nothing to hand over. 

[False dawn]

No need for a clock.

The 2 minute warning was sounded.
An announcement was made
A 60 second warning was announced.
A 30 second warning was announced.
NKI then emerged from the pit gate.
He came to the gate at a reasonable speed but not with any sense of urgency.
He then started a full gardening routine.
This was permitted for a short time, but eventually the starting marshal called NKI forward to join the other 3 riders who had been ready to race for some time.
NKI failed to come forward and the ref clearly felt that enough was enough.

I have some sympathy for the view that this was not untypical. I had began to get a bit fed up with the delays at the start last night and generally, actually. But arriving at the start well within the 2 minutes and then gardening is one thing. Leaving the pits with less than 30 seconds to go and then expecting to take significant time preparing to race is taking the pee. And it wasn't just Leicester fans who cheered when NKI was excluded.

[IainB]

11 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:

No, it needs to be wired into the clock on the refs control box so that its controlled by the ref.

So that's it then... for all time, for ever! May as well use a bloody egg timer! 

[W9 Lion]

18 minutes ago, iainb said:

So that's it then... for all time, for ever! May as well use a bloody egg timer! 

Or waiting for an opportunity to get a suitable power supply to the infield and then wiring the clock trigger into the refs box.

In the interim, rather than youe egg timer lets go for the stopwatch on my wrist.

[W9 Lion]

27 minutes ago, False dawn said:

No need for a clock.

The 2 minute warning was sounded.
An announcement was made
A 60 second warning was announced.
A 30 second warning was announced.
NKI then emerged from the pit gate.
He came to the gate at a reasonable speed but not with any sense of urgency.
He then started a full gardening routine.
This was permitted for a short time, but eventually the starting marshal called NKI forward to join the other 3 riders who had been ready to race for some time.
NKI failed to come forward and the ref clearly felt that enough was enough.

I have some sympathy for the view that this was not untypical. I had began to get a bit fed up with the delays at the start last night and generally, actually. But arriving at the start well within the 2 minutes and then gardening is one thing. Leaving the pits with less than 30 seconds to go and then expecting to take significant time preparing to race is taking the pee. And it wasn't just Leicester fans who cheered when NKI was excluded.

Could'nt have put it better myself.

[IainB]

6 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:

Or waiting for an opportunity to get a suitable power supply to the infield and then wiring the clock trigger into the refs box.

In the interim, rather than youe egg timer lets go for the stopwatch on my wrist.

The point is, when the ref puts the 2 mins on, he's the only one that can see when the time is up... how does having a stop watch on your wrist help the rider know exactly when the 2 mins are up? Or the crowd for that matter?

There's a perfectly simple solution available... but as usual Speedway ties itself up in knots about the minutiae of the current situation instead of putting in place new simple solutions

[Roger Jacobs]

12 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

Yes, all down to whether the referee deemed someone had gained an advantage. Even if a rider rolls or anticipates the start but comes out 4th, they will still be deemed as "gaining an advantage" if another rider falls. 

It's all referees discretion 

If, and only if, it was deemed an unsatisfactory start.

If someone falls, there is no such thing as referee's discretion.

• 011.1.11 Primary Cause of Stoppage
  The only person with the power to stop a heat is the Referee.
  When a heat is stopped, the Referee shall disqualify the rider, who in their opinion is the primary cause of the stoppage.

[stevehone]

For all those slagging off Kemp before the season started he’s not doing bad as a RS 

[Roger Jacobs]

1 hour ago, W9 Lion said:

A clock is not the issue. Being able to wire it into the refs control panel is the issue. We have the display already.

A clock is not the issue whether anyone is capable of installing it and/or operating it.  The clock is only for show. If the team and riders can't work it out, it's entirely their fault - no change to how it's ever been.

[W9 Lion]

12 minutes ago, iainb said:

The point is, when the ref puts the 2 mins on, he's the only one that can see when the time is up... how does having a stop watch on your wrist help the rider know exactly when the 2 mins are up? Or the crowd for that matter?

There's a perfectly simple solution available... but as usual Speedway ties itself up in knots about the minutiae of the current situation instead of putting in place new simple solutions

As soon as the yellow 2 minute light goes on I start my stopwatch.  At 90 seconds I give the rider in Gate 1 the hurry up. I get more vocal with 15 seconds to go. Once happy with the rider in Gate 1 I move onto the next rider as per the rule book. At this point generally the riders in Gates 3 & 4 roll in at the same time.  This is the perfectly simple solution. But when you go away you rarely see a 2 minute clock or a start marshal with a stopwatch.

[IainB]

1 minute ago, W9 Lion said:

As soon as the yellow 2 minute light goes on I start my stopwatch.  At 90 seconds I give the rider in Gate 1 the hurry up. I get more vocal with 15 seconds to go. Once happy with the rider in Gate 1 I move onto the next rider as per the rule book. At this point generally the riders in Gates 3 & 4 roll in at the same time.  This is the perfectly simple solution. But when you go away you rarely see a 2 minute clock or a start marshal with a stopwatch.

That does not sound simpler than having a clock on the centre green that everybody can see and when that clock ticks down to zero and a rider is not at the tapes ready to start that rider is excluded, like in the GP's to be honest

[ouch]

The clock at Belle Vue is fully connected to the refs box and riders like Dan use the display when gardening. He looks up at it a few times and generally finishes with 10 or so seconds to spare. 

The problem, which is typical of UK speedway is how inconsistent it all is.  Not all tracks are set up the same and not all refs implement rules the same. 

[Daniel Smith]

16 minutes ago, Roger Jacobs said:

If, and only if, it was deemed an unsatisfactory start.

If someone falls, there is no such thing as referee's discretion.

• 011.1.11 Primary Cause of Stoppage
  The only person with the power to stop a heat is the Referee.
  When a heat is stopped, the Referee shall disqualify the rider, who in their opinion is the primary cause of the stoppage.

It was so your point is irrelevant. We'll never know but had the rider not fallen the referee may have continued the heat. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Daniel Smith

[arnieg]

21 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:

As soon as the yellow 2 minute light goes on I start my stopwatch.  At 90 seconds I give the rider in Gate 1 the hurry up. I get more vocal with 15 seconds to go. Once happy with the rider in Gate 1 I move onto the next rider as per the rule book. At this point generally the riders in Gates 3 & 4 roll in at the same time.  This is the perfectly simple solution. But when you go away you rarely see a 2 minute clock or a start marshal with a stopwatch.

Given the number of postings on the subject we've clearly identified the single most important weakness of British Speedway - a clock. You should obviously do a thousand mea culpas before the crowd at the next match.

[W9 Lion]

19 minutes ago, iainb said:

That does not sound simpler than having a clock on the centre green that everybody can see and when that clock ticks down to zero and a rider is not at the tapes ready to start that rider is excluded, like in the GP's to be honest

Well because the rules are different for league racing to the SGP's.

011.1.3 2 Minute Allowance
The Referee must indicate the start of a 2 minute allowance by means of a
warning horn or bell audible in the pit area together with the flashing amber
lights if all of the riders are not in the starting area at the same time this
warning shall apply to all riders and can be given only once.
Except when the Referee considers that there are valid reasons for delaying
the start of an ensuing heat, the interval between the finish of one heat and
the start of the next shall not exceed 4 minutes including the 2 minute
allowance.
If a track has a countdown clock, that can be operated solely by the Referee,
then it is compulsory for the clock to be used.
Riders must, at the expiry of this time allowance, be on track, under power,
proceeding without stopping towards the starting gate.
If a rider is at the starting gate with sufficient time remaining of the 1 or 2
minute allowance they are permitted to prepare their starting gate area.
They must remain in full, personal control of their motorcycle, have the cut
out lanyard attached and with their motorcycle facing the direction of racing

[IainB]

17 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:

Well because the rules are different for league racing to the SGP's.

011.1.3 2 Minute Allowance
The Referee must indicate the start of a 2 minute allowance by means of a
warning horn or bell audible in the pit area together with the flashing amber
lights if all of the riders are not in the starting area at the same time this
warning shall apply to all riders and can be given only once.
Except when the Referee considers that there are valid reasons for delaying
the start of an ensuing heat, the interval between the finish of one heat and
the start of the next shall not exceed 4 minutes including the 2 minute
allowance.
If a track has a countdown clock, that can be operated solely by the Referee,
then it is compulsory for the clock to be used.
Riders must, at the expiry of this time allowance, be on track, under power,
proceeding without stopping towards the starting gate.
If a rider is at the starting gate with sufficient time remaining of the 1 or 2
minute allowance they are permitted to prepare their starting gate area.
They must remain in full, personal control of their motorcycle, have the cut
out lanyard attached and with their motorcycle facing the direction of racing

I know what the rules are and I know the difference between SCB and FIM/SGP... I'm saying they should be the same, why aren't they the same? Because not every track will buy a clock? That the Start Marshal can start if the Ref can't? If that's the reason then it's quite frankly ridiculous! Why does British Speedway tie itself up in unnecessary rules that are left open to interpretation?

If there had been a clock there last night NKI would have been at the tapes when it counted down to zero... but no, the paying public were deprived of a race containing the oppositions main man on the night because he couldn't see the stop watch on your wrist! Unbelievable!

[IainB]

35 minutes ago, arnieg said:

Given the number of postings on the subject we've clearly identified the single most important weakness of British Speedway - a clock. You should obviously do a thousand mea culpas before the crowd at the next match.

You may make light of it... but it is important and in a way it is part of the biggest weakness with British Speedway and that is integrity. Can you imagine Tennis being played in 2023 without Hawkeye or Cricket without Snicko etc? All very high tech, Speedway? Can't (or won't) afford a bloody clock!

When is 2 minutes not 2 minutes? When it's in Speedway. A clock at the start line removes any doubt as to whether a rider is ready to start, whether he's on track, under power, proceeding without stopping etc etc blah blah blah.

It's like what is an unsatisfactory start? There should be a line on the track and if an incident happens beyond that line an unsatisfactory start can't be called. These are the lackadaisically written rules that can tie a sport up in knots... look at the mess F1 got itself into last weekend with track limits!