Leicester vs Peterborough 06/07/23 PREMIERSHIP R2

[Lenny Lion]

4 minutes ago, iainb said:

It does not matter one bit if there is a clock on the centre that all can see... I really can't see what the debate is about

The clock debate is an interesting one. But are pointless in my opinion. 
 

All riders know when the 2 minutes go on there is 2 yellow beacons 1 outside where the riders line up & 1 inside the pits as-well as a big hooter that goes off in the pits. They are also told by the clerk of the course .

All a clock will achieve is so fans can see how long is left of the 2 minutes but because UK rules stipulate you only have to be on track facing in the correct direction & making your way to the tapes it would not matter if it hit zero because riders are not infringing the rules. 
 

7/10 races start within the 2 minutes time allowance so by having a clock would delay the meeting further because riders would take that little time extra digging around if they can see theres still 30 seconds left. You see it all the time in GP’s & Polish speedway riders sitting back & coming to tapes with 10 seconds to go.

Rules state that if a rider enters the track the final 30 seconds they are expected to come straight to tapes to race. Most referee’s will be lenient & allow them a small 10 second dig  but NKI was excluded because he entered the track after 1 min 45secs then proceeded to “garden” for another 45 seconds . Ignoring 3 requested from the start marshal to come up-to tapes & a request via the flashing of the green lights from the referee. So he was rightfully excluded.

 

Ignoring a track official & Delaying the start also used to be a fineable offence but that rule may have changed.

[IainB]

16 minutes ago, False dawn said:

 

No wind up intended, honest. Your suggestion is eminently sensible. The point in question is the exclusion of NKI under the existing rules. Some seem to suggest that the referee was job's worth or that it didn't matter that a rider could continue gardening in direct contradiction to the instructions of the starting marshal and the referee. Or better still, the rules shouldn't be applied because the race had no meaning or the exclusion caused further delay. If the race had no meaning why did NKI spend so much time preparing for it or take part in it all for that matter?

 

 

Like so many of the rules in Speedway they're open to interpretation... the 2 mins has always been a bone of contention for as long as I can remember since a certain Mr Ebdon. Personally I (and I suggest many other fans) would have liked to have seen NKI race in heat 15. But with the way the rules are currently written it really depends on what mood the ref is in. The ref was entitled to disqualify him, that is not my issue, it's gone now. What I am interested in is making sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again because ultimately it's the punters that lose out. It should not be an issue because clubs can't/won't provide something as simple and cheap as a countdown clock!

As soon as this happened in the GP's, didn't Trick get excluded because the ref was in a mood they changed the rule more or less straight away so everybody knew where they stood... but not in British Speedway

Edited July 11, 2023 by iainb

[therefused]

27 minutes ago, iainb said:

I don't know if you guys are deliberately trying to wind me up... this is perfectly simple. Scrap the rules as they are and implement a new rule to make it mandatory for a clock to be on the centre that we can all see and if a rider is not at the tapes and ready to start when the clock counts down to zero they are disqualified.

It doesn't matter if the rider is off his bike break dancing while the 2 minutes are counting down, he can do whatever the hell he wants, but if he's not at the tapes ready to start when the clock hits zero... he's gone

And it doesn't matter who physically starts the clock, the ref, the start marshal or even the bloody club mascot as long as it's the under direction of the ref

Nail on head, this is exactly how it should be

[Sir Sidney]

58 minutes ago, iainb said:

I don't know if you guys are deliberately trying to wind me up... this is perfectly simple. Scrap the rules as they are and implement a new rule to make it mandatory for a clock to be on the centre that we can all see and if a rider is not at the tapes and ready to start when the clock counts down to zero they are disqualified.

It doesn't matter if the rider is off his bike break dancing while the 2 minutes are counting down, he can do whatever the hell he wants, but if he's not at the tapes ready to start when the clock hits zero... he's gone

And it doesn't matter who physically starts the clock, the ref, the start marshal or even the bloody club mascot as long as it's the under direction of the ref

No wind up intended.

I agree with you, but it needs the rule to be changed 

[False dawn]

31 minutes ago, Lenny Lion said:

....All a clock will achieve is so fans can see how long is left of the 2 minutes but because UK rules stipulate you only have to be on track facing in the correct direction & making your way to the tapes it would not matter if it hit zero because riders are not infringing the rules....

That's not quite right. As quoted above, the rules state that a rider may prepare his gate position only if there is time remaining within the 2 minutes. I agree it would be better to have a clear indication if there was time remaining. But, at the risk of repeating myself, we are debating what actually happened. There was clearly little of no time left in the case in point and the starting marshal and the referee indicated that it was time to start the race. For a any rider to ignore the starting marshal is one thing. Ignoring a clear signal from the referee is asking for trouble, at best. Arrogant, at worse.

Changing the rules or adding additional equipment to deal with this, is not needed in my opinion. For what it's worth, I don't like the "normal" stating procedure in that a rider can spend the whole 2 minutes (or longer if he arrives even earlier) gardening. But we all know that the norm is for riders to come to the tapes in good time within the 2 minute warning, do some gardening and come to the tapes. If riders limbo dance the end of the time limit due to whatever reason, we regularly see them  speed to the tapes, do little gardening and come to the tapes ready to start. NKI seem to want to make a point, doing his normal starting preparation when he knew full well he was late to the tapes. He delayed the start. The fans knew it, the starting marshal knew it, the referee knew it and worst of all, he knew it.

[IainB]

15 minutes ago, False dawn said:

Changing the rules or adding additional equipment to deal with this, is not needed in my opinion.

Why do you think this?

[False dawn]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

Why do you think this?

Because riders in almost all instances operate within the existing rules quite well.

Of course we could chose to make the rules more black and white including the addition of a 2 minute clock. But just because we have very few blatant exceptions, this course of action isn't warranted. Much of what's been discussed here has nothing to do with what happened last Thursday. A dislike of the amount of gardening is a good example. I would welcome a change in the rules to reduce the amount of messing about at the start. And we can debate that and how to achieve this.

But the current rules are clear. If (and only if) there is sufficient time remaining within the two minutes, are riders allowed to garden. If a rider leave the pits with 30 seconds remaining, the starting marshal and the referee then indicate that the two minutes has expired, that rider is obliged to come to the tapes. If the rider chooses to ignore these instructions, he is delaying the start and is liable to be excluded. You might not like it but that's what the rules say and that's what happened. 

And for the record, it is my opinion that NKI was given adequate opportunity to comply and for reasons known only to him, chose to continue to prevent the race from commencing. It is perhaps even more telling that at the moment the referee flashed the green lights and some seconds later decided to put on the exclusion light, NKI was not gardening but was backed away from the tapes. The impression was that he was clearly being told to get on with it and he consciously decided not to. If a rider takes the pee or thinks he is above the rules he can be excluded for delaying the start. Which is exactly what happened. It is hard to arrive at any other conclusion than NKI decided he could ignore clear instruction from the referee and suffered the consequences.

Fd bored now.

[Happy Hunter]

34 minutes ago, False dawn said:

Because riders in almost all instances operate within the existing rules quite well.

Of course we could chose to make the rules more black and white including the addition of a 2 minute clock. But just because we have very few blatant exceptions, this course of action isn't warranted. Much of what's been discussed here has nothing to do with what happened last Thursday. A dislike of the amount of gardening is a good example. I would welcome a change in the rules to reduce the amount of messing about at the start. And we can debate that and how to achieve this.

But the current rules are clear. If (and only if) there is sufficient time remaining within the two minutes, are riders allowed to garden. If a rider leave the pits with 30 seconds remaining, the starting marshal and the referee then indicate that the two minutes has expired, that rider is obliged to come to the tapes. If the rider chooses to ignore these instructions, he is delaying the start and is liable to be excluded. You might not like it but that's what the rules say and that's what happened. 

And for the record, it is my opinion that NKI was given adequate opportunity to comply and for reasons known only to him, chose to continue to prevent the race from commencing. It is perhaps even more telling that at the moment the referee flashed the green lights and some seconds later decided to put on the exclusion light, NKI was not gardening but was backed away from the tapes. The impression was that he was clearly being told to get on with it and he consciously decided not to. If a rider takes the pee or thinks he is above the rules he can be excluded for delaying the start. Which is exactly what happened. It is hard to arrive at any other conclusion than NKI decided he could ignore clear instruction from the referee and suffered the consequences.

Fd bored now.

Aren't we all!

[szkocjasid]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:05 AM, bigcatdiary said:

Wayne Jarvis by his decision to exclude NKI delayed the meeting even more and made heat 15 a virtual non event bearing in mind FRICKE was unbeaten and Lawson had only been beaten once by NKI.

Common sense should have been applied, supporters go to watch speedway not referees making poor decisions 

I'll have to disagree, the rules are the same wether it's heat one, heat 15, a last heat decider or not!

I'm football of a player makes a red card foul in the first minute does the referee not send him off because fans want to watch 11 vs 11? No they follow the laws of the game - not exactly the same but if you avoid excluding someone for delaying the start to give fans 4 riders in a heat, what next? If a rider falls on his own at the back all 4 again?

[szkocjasid]

20 hours ago, iainb said:

Like so many of the rules in Speedway they're open to interpretation... the 2 mins has always been a bone of contention for as long as I can remember since a certain Mr Ebdon. Personally I (and I suggest many other fans) would have liked to have seen NKI race in heat 15. But with the way the rules are currently written it really depends on what mood the ref is in. The ref was entitled to disqualify him, that is not my issue, it's gone now. What I am interested in is making sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again because ultimately it's the punters that lose out. It should not be an issue because clubs can't/won't provide something as simple and cheap as a countdown clock!

As soon as this happened in the GP's, didn't Trick get excluded because the ref was in a mood they changed the rule more or less straight away so everybody knew where they stood... but not in British Speedway

Certainly didn't change straight away, after Rickardsson was excluded in the first round, Hancock, who had won the first round, was excluded in the second round. I was convinced at the time it was a conspiracy to allow Gollob the world title lol!

I remember a pic in the Speedway Star of Rickardsson taping a stop watch to his handlebars to avoid it happening again.

[Wolfie456]

Bit of worrying news for lions fans word is Morris has failed a drug test here at Birmingham tonight.

[Fullmax]

On 7/11/2023 at 11:15 AM, Lenny Lion said:

The clock debate is an interesting one. But are pointless in my opinion. 
 

All riders know when the 2 minutes go on there is 2 yellow beacons 1 outside where the riders line up & 1 inside the pits as-well as a big hooter that goes off in the pits. They are also told by the clerk of the course .

All a clock will achieve is so fans can see how long is left of the 2 minutes but because UK rules stipulate you only have to be on track facing in the correct direction & making your way to the tapes it would not matter if it hit zero because riders are not infringing the rules. 
 

7/10 races start within the 2 minutes time allowance so by having a clock would delay the meeting further because riders would take that little time extra digging around if they can see theres still 30 seconds left. You see it all the time in GP’s & Polish speedway riders sitting back & coming to tapes with 10 seconds to go.

Rules state that if a rider enters the track the final 30 seconds they are expected to come straight to tapes to race. Most referee’s will be lenient & allow them a small 10 second dig  but NKI was excluded because he entered the track after 1 min 45secs then proceeded to “garden” for another 45 seconds . Ignoring 3 requested from the start marshal to come up-to tapes & a request via the flashing of the green lights from the referee. So he was rightfully excluded.

 

Ignoring a track official & Delaying the start also used to be a fineable offence but that rule may have changed.

I've often wondered whats the point of having a Start Marshall  in British Speedway.  Ive yet to see a rider take any notice whatsoever of any of them. One thing that's guaranteed is that they spend more time gardening than they do racing 

In the GPs at least they  know any messing about and there out !

[IainB]

11 hours ago, Fullmax said:

In the GPs at least they  know any messing about and there out !

Because they can see a clock ticking down on the centre? 

[justathought]

How about issuing each rider with a massive wristwatch that actually fits round their crash helmet, that counts down the 2 minutes. This way, each rider can see exactly how much of the 2 minutes is left, simply by looking at the rider next to them.  These can also be sponsored by leading watch manufacturers or jewellers. 

[Happy Hunter]

18 minutes ago, justathought said:

How about issuing each rider with a massive wristwatch that actually fits round their crash helmet, that counts down the 2 minutes. This way, each rider can see exactly how much of the 2 minutes is left, simply by looking at the rider next to them.  These can also be sponsored by leading watch manufacturers or jewellers. 

Good idea, but they just want one on the start marshal's head!

[justathought]

2 minutes ago, Happy Hunter said:

Good idea, but they just want one on the start marshal's head!

Fair point, well-made. 

[W9 Lion]

On 7/12/2023 at 9:16 PM, Fullmax said:

I've often wondered whats the point of having a Start Marshall  in British Speedway.  Ive yet to see a rider take any notice whatsoever of any of them. One thing that's guaranteed is that they spend more time gardening than they do racing 

In the GPs at least they  know any messing about and there out !

Really?!? Do you watch what James and I do?

[W9 Lion]

On 7/16/2023 at 7:18 AM, justathought said:

How about issuing each rider with a massive wristwatch that actually fits round their crash helmet, that counts down the 2 minutes. This way, each rider can see exactly how much of the 2 minutes is left, simply by looking at the rider next to them.  These can also be sponsored by leading watch manufacturers or jewellers. 

And I have tried a number of jewwllers as sponsors of timer without success as of yet