Survival of The Premiership?

[DazS]

4 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

Maybe they actually need to make it faster,, more dangerous and more extreme 

yes take away the bouncy castles

[BackInTheDHSS]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:11 PM, DazS said:

ive seen riders walk away from hitting wooden and steel fences, must of all been miracles. Genius!

12 minutes ago, DazS said:

yes take away the bouncy castles

Yep, no need for them according to you. 

[Baldyman]

The figures often given aren't that special these days,,, 0 to 60 in around 3 seconds,,, my road bikes do that,,,,,, but if they said more horse power per ton than a bugatti veron,,, that's more impressive,,, wrecks a tyre in under 4 minutes,,, wow.  You can make it sound more appealing to youngsters straight away 

[kevin bass]

1 hour ago, Baldyman said:

The figures often given aren't that special these days,,, 0 to 60 in around 3 seconds,,, my road bikes do that,,,,,, but if they said more horse power per ton than a bugatti veron,,, that's more impressive,,, wrecks a tyre in under 4 minutes,,, wow.  You can make it sound more appealing to youngsters straight away 

Wrecks um within a couple of laps round Peterborough

[ch958]

50 minutes ago, kevin bass said:

Wrecks um within a couple of laps round Peterborough

which is yet another expense that needs addressing - one tyre per meeting shd be the aim. Somehow

[Falcon1983]

I think you need to go back to the drawing board, work with Denmark & Sweden, and in essence mainly look to run on the best race night for you, build a side based on your home night, yes guests and R/R are an issue in Speedway but its not the main evil when you are fighting against survival.

Going back to my earlier post, you should have either one league or a regionalised league, if regionalised North/South to form a little credibility when using guests you should only be able to use one from the other region.

North - Belle Vue, Berwick, Workington, Sheffield, Scunthorpe, Glasgow, Redcar
South - Leicester, Oxford, Ipswich, Kings Lynn, Poole, Plymouth, Birmingham

You then split the sides, so you are basically combining a First Team with a Reserve team.

Numbers 1-4 are main body riders (riders 1 & 3 are heat leaders), riders 5-7 are your reserve team with no.5 being a senior reserve, 6 & 7 are junior reserves

You get 2 Jnr x reserve races so 6 & 7 vs 6 & 7
each jnr then gets a programmed race with their senior reserve at no.5

The Snr Reserve then gets a programmed ride with riders 2 & 4

Riders 1 - 4 then get a programmed ride riding with each other, with 1 & 3 (heat leaders getting 2 x programmed rides together)

That would make up a 13 Heat Formulae

riders 1-5 getting 4 programmed rides, riders 6-7 getting 3 programmed rides

Individual Junior Championship then takes place in the "2nd Half of Meetings"

all 4 Jnr reserves race off in an individual championship over 4 heats so each rider gets a ride at each gate, 4 rides on the trot yes BUT you could have a 20 minute allocated time barring any stoppages to get the 4 heats run.

This would/could/should make it cheaper for teams as they essentially will have 3 juniors/amateur/semi pro riders in the side to pay across 3 programmed rides, they then get their individual championship for additional track time, maybe overall junior champion gets a bike supplied by BSPL at the end of the season.

Teams then have 4 main body riders to pay all taking 4 programmed rides plus 4 rides for a Senior Reserve who is still semi-pro level.

I made a list and you could get all 14 sides made up of current riders competing at Championship and National league level plus a few in the top flight.

This allows some established riders in the side plus all sides will see the development of younger riders coming through who can progress from Jnr level to Snr Reserve level then into the main body.

 

A few team examples

Berwick
1. Chris Harris
2. Leon Flint
3. Craig Cook
4. Kye Thomson
SNR. Connor Coles
JNR. Jamie Halder
JNR. Luke Harrison

Sheffield
1. Adam Ellis
2. Connor Mountain
3. Josh Pickering
4. Dan Gilkes
SNR. Nathan Ablitt
JNR. Tom Woolley
JNR. Arran Butcher

Poole
1. Richard Lawson
2. Zach Cook
3. Ben Cook
4. Anders Rowe
SNR. Lee Complin
JNR. Dayle Wood
JNR. Tom Spencer

Plymouth
1. Luke Becker
2. Broc Nicol
3. Ben Barker
4. Hans Andersen
SNR. Alfie Bowtell
JNR. Danny Phillips
JNr. Kelsey Dugard







 

[Daniel Smith]

14 minutes ago, Falcon1983 said:

I think you need to go back to the drawing board, work with Denmark & Sweden, and in essence mainly look to run on the best race night for you, build a side based on your home night, yes guests and R/R are an issue in Speedway but its not the main evil when you are fighting against survival.

Going back to my earlier post, you should have either one league or a regionalised league, if regionalised North/South to form a little credibility when using guests you should only be able to use one from the other region.

North - Belle Vue, Berwick, Workington, Sheffield, Scunthorpe, Glasgow, Redcar
South - Leicester, Oxford, Ipswich, Kings Lynn, Poole, Plymouth, Birmingham

You then split the sides, so you are basically combining a First Team with a Reserve team.

Numbers 1-4 are main body riders (riders 1 & 3 are heat leaders), riders 5-7 are your reserve team with no.5 being a senior reserve, 6 & 7 are junior reserves

You get 2 Jnr x reserve races so 6 & 7 vs 6 & 7
each jnr then gets a programmed race with their senior reserve at no.5

The Snr Reserve then gets a programmed ride with riders 2 & 4

Riders 1 - 4 then get a programmed ride riding with each other, with 1 & 3 (heat leaders getting 2 x programmed rides together)

That would make up a 13 Heat Formulae

riders 1-5 getting 4 programmed rides, riders 6-7 getting 3 programmed rides

Individual Junior Championship then takes place in the "2nd Half of Meetings"

all 4 Jnr reserves race off in an individual championship over 4 heats so each rider gets a ride at each gate, 4 rides on the trot yes BUT you could have a 20 minute allocated time barring any stoppages to get the 4 heats run.

This would/could/should make it cheaper for teams as they essentially will have 3 juniors/amateur/semi pro riders in the side to pay across 3 programmed rides, they then get their individual championship for additional track time, maybe overall junior champion gets a bike supplied by BSPL at the end of the season.

Teams then have 4 main body riders to pay all taking 4 programmed rides plus 4 rides for a Senior Reserve who is still semi-pro level.

I made a list and you could get all 14 sides made up of current riders competing at Championship and National league level plus a few in the top flight.

This allows some established riders in the side plus all sides will see the development of younger riders coming through who can progress from Jnr level to Snr Reserve level then into the main body.

 

A few team examples

Berwick
1. Chris Harris
2. Leon Flint
3. Craig Cook
4. Kye Thomson
SNR. Connor Coles
JNR. Jamie Halder
JNR. Luke Harrison

Sheffield
1. Adam Ellis
2. Connor Mountain
3. Josh Pickering
4. Dan Gilkes
SNR. Nathan Ablitt
JNR. Tom Woolley
JNR. Arran Butcher

Poole
1. Richard Lawson
2. Zach Cook
3. Ben Cook
4. Anders Rowe
SNR. Lee Complin
JNR. Dayle Wood
JNR. Tom Spencer

Plymouth
1. Luke Becker
2. Broc Nicol
3. Ben Barker
4. Hans Andersen
SNR. Alfie Bowtell
JNR. Danny Phillips
JNr. Kelsey Dugard







 

Then watch the BSPL charge £35 admission 

[mikebv]

3 hours ago, Baldyman said:

Maybe they actually need to make it faster,, more dangerous and more extreme 

Blindfold the riders...

And, like "It"s a knockout" used to do, have a buxom wench, dressed as a milking maid, stood at each bend screaming "Left, Left, Left" as they scream past...

Could be an absolute ratings winner...

Probably  wouldn't have Stuart Hall doing the commentary though...

[Falcon1983]

13 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Then watch the BSPL charge £35 admission 

probably would but EVERYONE has their part to play to give the sport a shot in the arm, if they could cap the ticket prices for say 3 years

£20 Adults, £15 OAPs, U25s £12.00 U18s FREE 

[Deano]

I’ve often thought speedway could have a “barbarian” type team like rugby. Perhaps made entirely of riders not racing in the U.K.. perhaps even wearing all black almost unidentifiable. A try and beat ‘em competition.

[truthsayer]

20 minutes ago, Deano said:

I’ve often thought speedway could have a “barbarian” type team like rugby. Perhaps made entirely of riders not racing in the U.K.. perhaps even wearing all black almost unidentifiable. A try and beat ‘em competition.

I definitely think there are no 'special' meetings these days.

Without sounding like an old biffer, I grew up watching 1980s National League speedway. Most weeks there was a rider you wanted to see and a few times a year there would be a really big meeting, with some big stars you'd never usually see at your local track.

Now it feels like it is the same riders week after week, and there's no special nights.

Speedway has many problems, most of which are grassroots issues and not about the 'survival of the Premiership' but one issue I think they have is the inability of a promoter to develop and promote their own product.

The cartel means they all have to serve up the same tripe as each other. I'd love promoters to be able to put on their own shows. Based in a holiday resort... forget league racing and serve up entertainment for the tourists. Only got limited access to your venue... run the events that work in your area. I've always said speedway's a bizarre example of a team sport (it's seven individuals who roughly wear the some colours, and when you add up how much they score you get a winning 'team') but I also accept there is an audience for it.

But stuff like touring teams, legend teams, Harlem Globetrotters etc. are all part of the show. Speedway could learn so much from other sports, like the pro and development tours in darts, the pantomime of wrestling and the progression structures (and club racing scenes) of other motorsports, but giving promoters the freedom to do (or at least experiment) what works in their market could at least give British speedway an opportunity to survive. 

It won't survive on the bland and outdated bilge that is league racing. To quote Kelvin Tatum 'No doubt about that'

Edited July 25, 2023 by truthsayer
typo

[Toady]

4 hours ago, DazS said:

yes take away the bouncy castles

I am Rory Schlien would agree with you

[mikebv]

Six man teams...

8 teams in the flagship top league..

No makeweights in the teams..

So. No one under a 4.5 average..

Use a 12 heat formula..

All pairs race against each other over fhe first nine..

Next three are lowest scorers to highest..

72 points up for grabs, at an average of £100

Meaning just over £14k to find for two meetings home and away, (plus (cough) VAT)..

Charge £15 to get in, to offset some of the cost of living crisis..

Whiich will hopefully make it affordable to your total fanbase, which is probably around, at least, double who actually attend regularly..

(Bank Holidays and Play Offs being an example of what the potential level of followers are out there each week)..

1200 pays £18k, plus any sponsorship on top..

If you can pay more than an average £100 a point due to better crowds than 1200, then do so pro rata. As if the riders are bringin the crowds in then share the extra around..

Run a 2nd half junior event on a pretty much "pay to play" (at best), expenses paid "free" practice to pad the evening out..

Or have a specifily sponsored prize for the top four from each team "rider of the night"..

Or maybe just  make the 12 heats last longer with better entertainment fan engagement and interaction in between heats, (competitios, prizes etc)..

Always wondered why clubs don't raffle off season tickets, or even half year, 'x" numher of matches "season tickets" as the season moves on..

£15 in, £3 a prog, and £2'in the raffle. Hand a twenty over in cash (kerching)..

I would suggest most in a 1200 crowd would pay a couple of quid to win a season ticket. 

And, very importantly, ride on whatever night you want that brings in the most punters..

And, probably most importantly, run your competition with credibility, integrity and, therefore,  kudos in winning...

Because if you fans don't believe it is tsken seriously, then, as we see today, they won't attend in enough numbers..

Edited July 26, 2023 by mikebv

[Deano]

14 hours ago, truthsayer said:

I definitely think there are no 'special' meetings these days.

Without sounding like an old biffer, I grew up watching 1980s National League speedway. Most weeks there was a rider you wanted to see and a few times a year there would be a really big meeting, with some big stars you'd never usually see at your local track.

Now it feels like it is the same riders week after week, and there's no special nights.

Speedway has many problems, most of which are grassroots issues and not about the 'survival of the Premiership' but one issue I think they have is the inability of a promoter to develop and promote their own product.

The cartel means they all have to serve up the same tripe as each other. I'd love promoters to be able to put on their own shows. Based in a holiday resort... forget league racing and serve up entertainment for the tourists. Only got limited access to your venue... run the events that work in your area. I've always said speedway's a bizarre example of a team sport (it's seven individuals who roughly wear the some colours, and when you add up how much they score you get a winning 'team') but I also accept there is an audience for it.

But stuff like touring teams, legend teams, Harlem Globetrotters etc. are all part of the show. Speedway could learn so much from other sports, like the pro and development tours in darts, the pantomime of wrestling and the progression structures (and club racing scenes) of other motorsports, but giving promoters the freedom to do (or at least experiment) what works in their market could at least give British speedway an opportunity to survive. 

It won't survive on the bland and outdated bilge that is league racing. To quote Kelvin Tatum 'No doubt about that'

I was thinking on the lines of a nomad club, tours the UK. Maybe plonk them in the league structure with a team, but don't use riders that we currently see week in week out. It may appeal to those fans that no longer have a club, give them a club to follow. The team that tours the UK, give them some mystery so fans have to work out who they are.

[Baldyman]

Maybe they  could all wear different costumes,, and after they have a race, the crowd could all shout, take it off, take it off, take it off,, and the slowly take off their helmet and reveal who they are,,, and then the crowd can sigh in disappointment,,, as no one really knows who they are.  

[Daniel Smith]

51 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Six man teams...

8 teams in the flagship top league..

No makeweights in the teams..

So. No one under a 4.5 average..

Use a 12 heat formula..

All pairs race against each other over fhe first nine..

Next three are lowest scorers to highest..

72 points up for grabs, at an average of £100

Meaning just over £14k to find for two meetings home and away, (plus (cough) VAT)..

Charge £15 to get in, to offset some of the cost of living crisis..

Whiich will hopefully make it affordable to your total fanbase, which is probably around, at least, double who actually attend regularly..

(Bank Holidays and Play Offs being an example of what the potential level of followers are out there each week)..

1200 pays £18k, plus any sponsorship on top..

If you can pay more than an average £100 a point due to better crowds than 1200, then do so pro rata. As if the riders are bringin the crowds in then share the extra around..

Run a 2nd half junior event on a pretty much "pay to play" (at best), expenses paid "free" practice to pad the evening out..

Or have a specifily sponsored prize for the top four from each team "rider of the night"..

Or maybe just  make the 12 heats last longer with better entertainment fan engagement and interaction in between heats, (competitios, prizes etc)..

Always wondered why clubs don't raffle off season tickets, or even half year, 'x" numher of matches "season tickets" as the season moves on..

£15 in, £3 a prog, and £2'in the raffle. Hand a twenty over in cash (kerching)..

I would suggest most in a 1200 crowd would pay a couple of quid to win a season ticket. 

And, very importantly, ride on whatever night you want that brings in the most punters..

And, probably most importantly, run your competition with credibility, integrity and, therefore,  kudos in winning...

Because if you fans don't believe it is tsken seriously, then, as we see today, they won't attend in enough numbers..

Wolves & Peterborough likely gone, concerns over Edinburgh & Poole's longevity, I just don't see how a 'top league' can be sustainable. 

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, Daniel Smith said:

Wolves & Peterborough likely gone, concerns over Edinburgh & Poole's longevity, I just don't see how a 'top league' can be sustainable. 

There will have to be a "top league" I would say due to some teams being not able to run in anything other than a "paid amateur" status, and some teams running "second teams"..

As has been seen, (and many predicted), bringing back world class stars had a "novelty impact" to crowds but didn't massively change them, therefore it is a pipe dream to expect their presence long term to be beneficial..

And, if sponsors are willing to bank roll these riders, then they would be better off bankrolling lower admission costs..

Cloth needs to be cut accordingly, and, if not enough riders, then have less places per team... 

With each team riding at their "natural level" based on crowd levels, not based on "this is what I want to do this year, and maybe next year I will change my mind"...

As all that does is say to the fans "these championships mean nothing even to us who run them"...

(Hence such a ludicrously contrived operating model exists which just compounds the lack of taking it seriously)...

You cannot shop in Harrods every week with an Aldi budget...

[truthsayer]

2 hours ago, mikebv said:

Six man teams...

8 teams in the flagship top league..

No makeweights in the teams..

So. No one under a 4.5 average..

Use a 12 heat formula..

All pairs race against each other over fhe first nine..

Next three are lowest scorers to highest..

72 points up for grabs, at an average of £100

Meaning just over £14k to find for two meetings home and away, (plus (cough) VAT)..

Charge £15 to get in, to offset some of the cost of living crisis..

Whiich will hopefully make it affordable to your total fanbase, which is probably around, at least, double who actually attend regularly..

(Bank Holidays and Play Offs being an example of what the potential level of followers are out there each week)..

1200 pays £18k, plus any sponsorship on top..

If you can pay more than an average £100 a point due to better crowds than 1200, then do so pro rata. As if the riders are bringin the crowds in then share the extra around..

Run a 2nd half junior event on a pretty much "pay to play" (at best), expenses paid "free" practice to pad the evening out..

Or have a specifily sponsored prize for the top four from each team "rider of the night"..

Or maybe just  make the 12 heats last longer with better entertainment fan engagement and interaction in between heats, (competitios, prizes etc)..

Always wondered why clubs don't raffle off season tickets, or even half year, 'x" numher of matches "season tickets" as the season moves on..

£15 in, £3 a prog, and £2'in the raffle. Hand a twenty over in cash (kerching)..

I would suggest most in a 1200 crowd would pay a couple of quid to win a season ticket. 

And, very importantly, ride on whatever night you want that brings in the most punters..

And, probably most importantly, run your competition with credibility, integrity and, therefore,  kudos in winning...

Because if you fans don't believe it is tsken seriously, then, as we see today, they won't attend in enough numbers..

This is missing a lot of the significant overheads which add to the expense: travel costs, stadium rent, medical cover, printing, insurance, utilities... to name but a few.

[mikebv]

12 minutes ago, truthsayer said:

This is missing a lot of the significant overheads which add to the expense: travel costs, stadium rent, medical cover, printing, insurance, utilities... to name but a few.

That would be where the sponsors and TV money kick in to help...

If you are paying out around £14k, and taking in £18k, then a couple of grand of TV money and sponsors money on top must cover most bills surely?

Sponsors need to sponsor clubs not their own personal favourites..

That alone would help the overall well being of the sport..

 

[truthsayer]

26 minutes ago, mikebv said:

That would be where the sponsors and TV money kick in to help...

If you are paying out around £14k, and taking in £18k, then a couple of grand of TV money and sponsors money on top must cover most bills surely?

Sponsors need to sponsor clubs not their own personal favourites..

That alone would help the overall well being of the sport..

 

I don't have any inside information, but I would expect putting on a speedway meeting costs more than £4k, a lot more than £4k. 

And you shouldn't be running a business just to break even, those investing in it should be able to take a wage and make a profit (and have some contingency for rain offs).

I cannot see speedway being paid to be on TV, if anything I can see the sport having to pay for the production in future years. I doubt it is much, if anything, anymore.

Travel for 14 riders, even without coming from other countries, is likely £2k a night. Medical cover will be at least £500 (probably a good bit more) and insurance won't be cheap for a motorsport event. Stadium hire, I have no idea, but must be at least £2k a night before the lights are even turned on.

I have no idea how speedway clubs remain even remotely solvent based on their expenses and income.