Grand Prix Rules.

[a4poster]

Just a quickie to settle an argument.

If after the qualifying heats were completed and prior to the semi-finals are taking place one of the top eight riders have to withdraw from the meeting would the rider in ninth be promoted to the semi-final or would it be completed with just the three remaining riders.

Thanks in advance.

[racers and royals]

9 hours ago, a4poster said:

Just a quickie to settle an argument.

If after the qualifying heats were completed and prior to the semi-finals are taking place one of the top eight riders have to withdraw from the meeting would the rider in ninth be promoted to the semi-final or would it be completed with just the three remaining riders.

Thanks in advance.

Interesting question - and i believe the answer to be no the ninth rider is not allowed to ride and it would be three riders only. i have come to that conclusion because the 2022 rules do not mention about promotion for the 9th rider(that i can see).

https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2022/FIM_Speedway_Grand_Prix_World_Championship_rulebook_2022_-_14.08.pdf?t=1669716095

[f-s-p]

There should also be a clause stating if you dont ride in the semis, your ninth, or tenth or even eleventh if theres a big pileup in heat 20.

[Humphrey Appleby]

3 minutes ago, f-s-p said:

There should also be a clause stating if you dont ride in the semis, your ninth, or tenth or even eleventh if theres a big pileup in heat 20.

Riders placed 9th downwards should be considered reserves for the Semi-Final. Whether to replace injuries or exclusions (where replacements are allowed).

[racers and royals]

4 minutes ago, f-s-p said:

There should also be a clause stating if you dont ride in the semis, your ninth, or tenth or even eleventh if theres a big pileup in heat 20.

Why heat 20 ? there could be a big pile up in heat 19   Are you saying that anyone in the top 8 after 20 heats who cannot ride in the semi`s should be replaced by the next in line and their finishing place( points scored) is adjusted accordingly ? Not sure i agree with that.

[Gambo]

If a rider is unable to take his place in a S/F (or Final) he is declared as having finished last in that S/F (or Final)

[Bojangles]

11 hours ago, a4poster said:

Just a quickie to settle an argument.

If after the qualifying heats were completed and prior to the semi-finals are taking place one of the top eight riders have to withdraw from the meeting would the rider in ninth be promoted to the semi-final or would it be completed with just the three remaining riders.

Thanks in advance.

It would be completed with just three riders. This is because of the way the Grand Prix points are allocated. It would be unfair on the rider that had to withdraw from the meeting - he is entitled to his place in the top 8 on the night and would miss out on that if the rider who finished ninth was promoted to the semis.

For instance, if Tai Woffinden scored a 15-point maximum, then had to withdraw from the semis, he would score 10 points. If he was replaced in the semis, he would only score 8 points, so it can't be done.

[Humphrey Appleby]

1 hour ago, Bojangles said:

It would be completed with just three riders. This is because of the way the Grand Prix points are allocated. It would be unfair on the rider that had to withdraw from the meeting - he is entitled to his place in the top 8 on the night and would miss out on that if the rider who finished ninth was promoted to the semis.

Why would it be unfair? If a rider gets injured after their first, second, third and fourth heats it will likely push them down the classification anyway. Why should it be different for the Semi-Finals and Finals if you're unable to complete the meeting?

The top 8 should have first option to race in the semi-finals, but if they're unable to take their place or are excluded (2 minutes or tapes), then the slot should go to the next rider in-line. Same for the Final for that matter.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby

[Bojangles]

10 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Why would it be unfair? If a rider gets injured after their first, second, third and fourth heats it will likely push them down the classification anyway. Why should it be different for the Semi-Finals and Finals if you're unable to complete the meeting?

The top 8 should have first option to race in the semi-finals, but if they're unable to take their place or are excluded (2 minutes or tapes), then the slot should go to the next rider in-line. Same for the Final for that matter.

It would be unfair because they have already earned those points by completing the qualifying heats. Thats how the scoring system works. 

Replacing a semi-finalist with the ninth placed finisher would mean actually taking points AWAY from an injured rider. It’s a completely different matter if he hasn’t already scored the points before the qualifying heats have finished. 

[f-s-p]

5 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Riders placed 9th downwards should be considered reserves for the Semi-Final. Whether to replace injuries or exclusions (where replacements are allowed).

No. Isn't the whole point of the  three last heats to give the eight best so far a chance to score more. It might be stupid, but that's the point of it.

[f-s-p]

5 hours ago, racers and royals said:

Why heat 20 ? there could be a big pile up in heat 19   Are you saying that anyone in the top 8 after 20 heats who cannot ride in the semi`s should be replaced by the next in line and their finishing place( points scored) is adjusted accordingly ? Not sure i agree with that.

No, just the opposite. U were unsure of the rule, so I tried to point out that it if a rider finishing 9th were eligible to ride in a semi, it WOULD SAY SO in the rule book. It doesn't and that's good.

Well basically there could be a HUUUUUUGE pileup in heat 17 resulting in semi 1 being declared.   ....and I'll wait you to do the math on that.

[racers and royals]

13 minutes ago, f-s-p said:

No, just the opposite. U were unsure of the rule, so I tried to point out that it if a rider finishing 9th were eligible to ride in a semi, it WOULD SAY SO in the rule book. It doesn't and that's good.

Well basically there could be a HUUUUUUGE pileup in heat 17 resulting in semi 1 being declared.   ....and I'll wait you to do the math on that.

Well if the 4 riders in heat 17 finished in positions 1,4,6 and 7 in the intermediate classification that would take some doing 

What i only found out last season is that the GP points from 20 down to 1 cover riders 1 to 18 on the night. I don`t think it`s right  that a rider in the permanent 15 if injured in his 1st ride would score 0 points if the reserve scored as his replacement in the remaining heats. 

Imagine if the leader of the championship going into the final round just needed a point to be WC and was injured in his 1st ride and wouldn`t  get a GP point unless the reserves also failed to score in the 4 rides they covered- could a few bob change hands 

Edited November 29, 2022 by racers and royals

[Humphrey Appleby]

14 hours ago, racers and royals said:

What i only found out last season is that the GP points from 20 down to 1 cover riders 1 to 18 on the night. I don`t think it`s right  that a rider in the permanent 15 if injured in his 1st ride would score 0 points if the reserve scored as his replacement in the remaining heats. 

How is it different to (say) an F1 driver getting injured and the reserve driver coming in and scoring points instead? 

The paying public should get to see 16 riders out on the track, and the reserves also need some incentive to turn up and try if they have the opportunity to ride. It's unfortunate when riders get injured, but it's the nature of the sport.

In the worst case scenario, what if 3 or 4 riders got injured during a GP and you ended up with heats with only a couple of riders, or even worse no riders...?

[racers and royals]

4 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

How is it different to (say) an F1 driver getting injured and the reserve driver coming in and scoring points instead? 

The paying public should get to see 16 riders out on the track, and the reserves also need some incentive to turn up and try if they have the opportunity to ride. It's unfortunate when riders get injured, but it's the nature of the sport.

In the worst case scenario, what if 3 or 4 riders got injured during a GP and you ended up with heats with only a couple of riders, or even worse no riders...?

The F 1 comparison is more like the reserve list GP riders replacing injured riders pre the meeting starting. 
the GP meeting reserves are normally youngsters who would just get the 1 GP experience and i just think GP points should be restricted to the 15 plus WC and riders off the reserve list.

Edited November 30, 2022 by racers and royals

[f-s-p]

It wasnt all that difficult to come up with a scorechart that had semifinal 1 with no riders (all injured in heats 17-20) and semi2 with three riders only with one injured.

All it took was the CoC messing with a track he had no prior knowledge of thinking he knows it better than the locals… I left the paper at work, I’ll write it here later on how it all went

[Daniel Smith]

Some strange chat here, very weird 

[racers and royals]

1 hour ago, Daniel Smith said:

Some strange chat here, very weird 

That`s FSP  he does like a drink or three 

[f-s-p]

16 hours ago, racers and royals said:

That`s FSP  he does like a drink or three 

All that was BEFORE I had them drinks…

[ElmParkRG2]

On 11/29/2022 at 4:11 PM, racers and royals said:

Well if the 4 riders in heat 17 finished in positions 1,4,6 and 7 in the intermediate classification that would take some doing 

What i only found out last season is that the GP points from 20 down to 1 cover riders 1 to 18 on the night. I don`t think it`s right  that a rider in the permanent 15 if injured in his 1st ride would score 0 points if the reserve scored as his replacement in the remaining heats. 

Imagine if the leader of the championship going into the final round just needed a point to be WC and was injured in his 1st ride and wouldn`t  get a GP point unless the reserves also failed to score in the 4 rides they covered- could a few bob change hands 

Just to throw a spanner in the works R & R. Would the rider still get a point if he was injured in a incident for which he was deemed at fault and was excluded? Technically he hadn't raced that evening, , would he also get the point if he got injured in the practise session?

[racers and royals]

54 minutes ago, ElmParkRG2 said:

Just to throw a spanner in the works R & R. Would the rider still get a point if he was injured in a incident for which he was deemed at fault and was excluded? Technically he hadn't raced that evening, , would he also get the point if he got injured in the practise session?

If he started a race and got excluded and injured means he raced. If the 17 or 18 failed to score he would finish 16th  and score a point.  Injured in Practice means he didn`t start in the meeting and the reserves would take his rides. If neither scored reserve no 17 would take precedent and score a point.