New rule ??

[Racin Jason 72]

Whilst watching the premiership grand final it seemed to me that the referee made all the correct decisions according to the rules but the rules maybe need amending. 
any incidents up to the exit of the second bend can only be dealt with either a rerun due to a unsatisfactory start or a exclusion for the cause of the stoppage.  There isn’t actually a rule about first bend bunching despite being spoken about repeatedly. 
why not have a 50/50 no blame rerun for any incidents on the first lap which genuinely is a 50/50 incident. 
this would allow more 4 rider races and points to be won on the track rather than the referee exclusion light. 
thoughts ???

[hawks 1975]

I've always advocated allowing referees to use their discretion and allow all four back where a 'racing' incident occurs. Too often we see two riders clash as they take different lines off a bend, and come together. How many times do we hear Kelvin etc call it a 50-50, and how difficult a call it is for the ref to exclude one of them. As it stands, a rider trying to 'race' is often penalised, yet we as fans want to see RACING!

I would go further, and where an incident occurs on the third or fourth lap, I would allow the ref the discretion to have a re-run with just the two who fell,  and they would fight it out for the positions they were in when the race was stopped. How many times do we see a re-run where the rider who was leading by a mile ends up missing out.  Should the rider who was well back in fourth spot be allowed the chance to win the race just because two at the front clashed?

Allow refs to exclude where a rider has deliberately brought off another, or just made a mistake and come off, but allow riders who want to race to do so. Speedway would be the winner.

[Skodaman]

4 hours ago, hawks 1975 said:

I've always advocated allowing referees to use their discretion and allow all four back where a 'racing' incident occurs. Too often we see two riders clash as they take different lines off a bend, and come together. How many times do we hear Kelvin etc call it a 50-50, and how difficult a call it is for the ref to exclude one of them. As it stands, a rider trying to 'race' is often penalised, yet we as fans want to see RACING!

I would go further, and where an incident occurs on the third or fourth lap, I would allow the ref the discretion to have a re-run with just the two who fell,  and they would fight it out for the positions they were in when the race was stopped. How many times do we see a re-run where the rider who was leading by a mile ends up missing out.  Should the rider who was well back in fourth spot be allowed the chance to win the race just because two at the front clashed?

Allow refs to exclude where a rider has deliberately brought off another, or just made a mistake and come off, but allow riders who want to race to do so. Speedway would be the winner.

Once upon a time, riders were not allopwed to change their line for the first 12 yards (if I am right). Does this rule still exist?

[steve roberts]

33 minutes ago, Skodaman said:

Once upon a time, riders were not allopwed to change their line for the first 12 yards (if I am right). Does this rule still exist?

The 30 yard mark used to confuse some people but it wasn't there to stop riders from deviating (within reason) but if a bike stalled when leaving the tapes it's the distance that outside help was allowed to push start the bike if necessary...not sure if that is still the case however?

Edited November 21, 2022 by steve roberts

[The White Knight]

I think the initial Post is good one. I totally agree with it.

[King Jamie]

A referee is entitled to use their discretion at all times. They do not have to exclude any rider at any point in a race, regardless of whether it's lap 1 or lap 4.

No need for any rules to be changed. We just need refs to stop being exclusion-happy.

[old bob at herne bay]

I thought this was a joke post initially, but now people have responded and  "King Jamie" has invented a rule called referees discretion !

Can you imagine how long meetings would meander on for after the 15th  " 50/50 " decision on the last lap and we had all 4 back.  Referees would just never take the difficult decisions and opt for the "50/50"  rule every time anyone  rode with 2 feet of another rider and someone fell.  The riders would be sliding off at every opportunity to claim a "50/50" ruling all 4 back.

This crazy idea is open to so much mis interpretation and abuse that it is a non starter.   

 

 

 

[Humphrey Appleby]

6 hours ago, steve roberts said:

The 30 yard mark used to confuse some people but it wasn't there to stop riders from deviating (within reason) but if a bike stalled when leaving the tapes it's the distance that outside help was allowed to push start the bike if necessary...not sure if that is still the case however?

Thought that rule was deleted some years ago, but I haven't checked recently. Seemed a bit pointless as you're unlikely to be at the races if you need to be push started. 

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, King Jamie said:

A referee is entitled to use their discretion at all times. They do not have to exclude any rider at any point in a race, regardless of whether it's lap 1 or lap 4.

No need for any rules to be changed. We just need refs to stop being exclusion-happy.

 Not quite with you on that one.!

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Thought that rule was deleted some years ago, but I haven't checked recently. Seemed a bit pointless as you're unlikely to be at the races if you need to be push started. 

...always the chance that someone may fall off or break down?

[Racin Jason 72]

12 hours ago, old bob at herne bay said:

I thought this was a joke post initially, but now people have responded and  "King Jamie" has invented a rule called referees discretion !

Can you imagine how long meetings would meander on for after the 15th  " 50/50 " decision on the last lap and we had all 4 back.  Referees would just never take the difficult decisions and opt for the "50/50"  rule every time anyone  rode with 2 feet of another rider and someone fell.  The riders would be sliding off at every opportunity to claim a "50/50" ruling all 4 back.

This crazy idea is open to so much mis interpretation and abuse that it is a non starter.   

 

 

 

I suggested that only lap one could this rule be used. If a rider is obviously to blame then they would be excluded.  

[King Jamie]

12 hours ago, old bob at herne bay said:

I thought this was a joke post initially, but now people have responded and  "King Jamie" has invented a rule called referees discretion !

I haven't invented anything Sir.

I'm just stating a little known fact that the referee doesn't need to exclude anyone at any point in the race.

At least 2 refs have confirmed this in the past, one of them a former GP ref. I think he (and the other, hugely experienced, chap) would know what they were talking about 

[Fromafar]

2 hours ago, King Jamie said:

I haven't invented anything Sir.

I'm just stating a little known fact that the referee doesn't need to exclude anyone at any point in the race.

At least 2 refs have confirmed this in the past, one of them a former GP ref. I think he (and the other, hugely experienced, chap) would know what they were talking about 

What happens when somebody falls on 3rd lap and race is stopped.I assume your say he declares the result but doesn’t exclude the fallen rider.Are you also saying he can re-run the race with all 4 at his discretion.Just asking,not doubting.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Fromafar

[IronScorpion]

A racing incident that annoys me is when riders are racing close together round a bend & the rider in front locks up. The rider behind has no time to change his line, no time to lay his bike down so runs in to him & is excluded. The fault lies with the rider in front.

[King Jamie]

54 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

What happens when somebody falls on 3rd lap and race is stopped.I assume your say he declares the result but doesn’t exclude the fallen rider.Are you also saying he can re-run the race with all 4 at his discretion.Just asking,not doubting.

When somebody falls on the 3rd lap, on their own, they would still be excluded if the race was stopped. Awarding the result would obviously depend on the positions / closeness of the remaining riders, as normal.

Re-runs with all 4 can take place after genuine 'racing incidents' on any lap. The thing is, they are still relatively rare. In the vast majority of cases, 'fault' should be reasonably clear and the decision to exclude is, therefore, correct. However as stated, if the ref cannot decide, the all 4 option is still available 

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, IronScorpion said:

A racing incident that annoys me is when riders are racing close together round a bend & the rider in front locks up. The rider behind has no time to change his line, no time to lay his bike down so runs in to him & is excluded. The fault lies with the rider in front.

I recall when Ted Hubbard at Hackney did exactly that in front of John Dews and John took avoiding action.

[Grachan]

Rule 011.1.11

"When a heat is stopped, the Referee shall disqualify the rider, who in their opinion is the primary cause of the stoppage."

So surely this means someone has to be excluded. In the case of a genuine 50/50 that must mean the rider who came off as he is the cause of the stoppage.

[Daniel Smith]

Doesn't matter in any situation, 2 rider's coming together someone is at fault, it's fact. It's a reason I don't like 'All Four Back' at the start of a heat too. 

9/10 time, reckless riding is the cause of 1st bend bunching. Rider's on gates 3 & 4 should never be aiming for turn 1 curb & rider's of 1 & 2 shouldn't be aiming for an outside line. 

The best rider's in the world hardly ever cause a first bend incident. 9/10 times these are caused by lesser standard rider's being desperate. 

[steve roberts]

17 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Doesn't matter in any situation, 2 rider's coming together someone is at fault, it's fact. It's a reason I don't like 'All Four Back' at the start of a heat too. 

9/10 time, reckless riding is the cause of 1st bend bunching. Rider's on gates 3 & 4 should never be aiming for turn 1 curb & rider's of 1 & 2 shouldn't be aiming for an outside line. 

The best rider's in the world hardly ever cause a first bend incident. 9/10 times these are caused by lesser standard rider's being desperate. 

...a favourite ploy of Tommy Knudsen. Tried it against Marvyn Cox at Cowley on one occasion but Marvyn anticipated it and held back slightly cutting back and passing Knudsen up the inside joining Hans for a glorious match winning 5-1!

[King Jamie]

6 hours ago, Grachan said:

Rule 011.1.11

"When a heat is stopped, the Referee shall disqualify the rider, who in their opinion is the primary cause of the stoppage."

So surely this means someone has to be excluded. In the case of a genuine 50/50 that must mean the rider who came off as he is the cause of the stoppage.

No, it doesn't.

If riders crash, the referee probably puts the red lights on for safety reasons primarily. However if, in their opinion, they can't decide who was the primary cause of the stoppage, there's nothing to stop them declaring an all 4 rerun.

I suspect most refs don't do it because fans may think they're 'bottling' making a decision and, therefore, shouldn't be in the job. I would argue the opposite. The option is there. If the situation fits, use it.