Sheffield vs. Belle Vue Grand Final 2nd Leg 13/10/22

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, foreverblue said:

I thought the heat 3 decision was wrong and should have been all 4 back but on reflection over the two meetings Sheffield didn't lose because of the referee, Holder and Howarth were to blame, Howarth was particularly poor at Sheffield and Holder seems to not be too clever at times and was outsmarted by Kurtz, you can't expect Kurtz not to fight for his position just because you are friends, it seemed obvious what Kurtz was going to do and Holder should have seen it coming. 

"Good, hard riding, just what we want to see"...

Would have been the comment a few years ago...

[Chrisdonnelly]

2 hours ago, B.V 72 said:

Lots of differing opinions on here. Lambert for fricke like for like or cheat etc  some say yes some say no. Was the ref right or was she wrong some say yes some say no.

 

Here's my opinion why Sheffield lost (in my opinion this is more like a fact ).If Sheffield's  number 1 and  G P star Jack Holder had put a shift in and rode like a heat leader at Belle vue any of the above would not have mattered because Sheffield would have walked it.

Exactly. Let's not make excuses. Sheffields top rider didn't turn up for either match. Plus had no back up from (track specialist) Kyle howarth & Ellis. 

Both teams had bad luck, let's not forget belle Vue had 2 riders missing for most of it but imo Belle Vue wanted it more. Sheffield were almost trying to find problems and someone to blame. From heat 1 Sheffield had a big advantage to jump all over BV and kill the match off early but they couldn't capitalise and heat 3&4 were close. It's was almost desperation from Sheffield towards the end but BV held their nerve.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Chrisdonnelly

[foreverblue]

9 minutes ago, mikebv said:

"Good, hard riding, just what we want to see"...

Would have been the comment a few years ago...

Yes and he looked to make sure he was far enough in front. 

[4thbender]

Here’s a different view…

If the integrity of speedway racing is to be maintained amongst the panoply of British sporting endeavour, the outcome of the Speedway Premiership Grand Final must be reversed forthwith and awarded to the Sheffield team, on the following basis.

Heats 1 and 3 were the subject of re-runs after riders fell, the riders adjudged to be at fault having been excluded (rightly so) from the re-run. In heat eleven, the rider in white fell and the rider in red was adjudged to have been at fault. In keeping with the correct procedure carried out in the earlier heats, the referee should have initiated a re-run of heat 11 with three riders, the rider in red being excluded. In a totally unprecedented interpretation of the rules however, the referee failed to initiate a re-run, but pre-empted its result by awarding Belle Vue a 5 – 1 race victory… .. in a re-run that had not taken place!

As witnessed by thousands of spectators in the stadium and countless thousands of viewers of the Eurosport TV broadcast, the rider in white failed to finish the race and was laid on the track 80 metres short of the finish line, and yet was inexplicably awarded 3 points (see the referee’s race card), in contravention of the spirit (if not the written rules) of speedway racing, the conventions of which stipulate that points are awarded according to the order of riders crossing the finishing line after the completion of four laps.

It is utterly unconscionable and against the spirit of speedway racing than a race non-finisher, regardless of circumstances, should be arbitrarily awarded a race win ahead of riders who completed four laps and crossed the finish line in open and fair competition.

Having failed to initiate a re-run therefore, the only fair and equitable option open to the referee (with the rider in white having failed to complete the race and the rider in red having been excluded) was to award points to the only two riders to legitimately finish the race, i.e. three points to the rider in yellow and two to the rider in blue. This gives Belle Vue a 3 – 2 race victory, bringing the total accumulated points after heat 11 to 37 – 28 in Sheffield’s favour. Given that in the remaining four heats Sheffield scored 14 points to Belle Vue’s 10, this brings the final totals to 51 – 38 in Sheffield’s favour, giving Sheffield a victory by a single point over the two legs of the Premiership Grand Final.

[arnieg]

2 minutes ago, 4thbender said:

Here’s a different view…

If the integrity of speedway racing is to be maintained amongst the panoply of British sporting endeavour, the outcome of the Speedway Premiership Grand Final must be reversed forthwith and awarded to the Sheffield team, on the following basis.

Heats 1 and 3 were the subject of re-runs after riders fell, the riders adjudged to be at fault having been excluded (rightly so) from the re-run. In heat eleven, the rider in white fell and the rider in red was adjudged to have been at fault. In keeping with the correct procedure carried out in the earlier heats, the referee should have initiated a re-run of heat 11 with three riders, the rider in red being excluded. In a totally unprecedented interpretation of the rules however, the referee failed to initiate a re-run, but pre-empted its result by awarding Belle Vue a 5 – 1 race victory… .. in a re-run that had not taken place!

As witnessed by thousands of spectators in the stadium and countless thousands of viewers of the Eurosport TV broadcast, the rider in white failed to finish the race and was laid on the track 80 metres short of the finish line, and yet was inexplicably awarded 3 points (see the referee’s race card), in contravention of the spirit (if not the written rules) of speedway racing, the conventions of which stipulate that points are awarded according to the order of riders crossing the finishing line after the completion of four laps.

It is utterly unconscionable and against the spirit of speedway racing than a race non-finisher, regardless of circumstances, should be arbitrarily awarded a race win ahead of riders who completed four laps and crossed the finish line in open and fair competition.

Having failed to initiate a re-run therefore, the only fair and equitable option open to the referee (with the rider in white having failed to complete the race and the rider in red having been excluded) was to award points to the only two riders to legitimately finish the race, i.e. three points to the rider in yellow and two to the rider in blue. This gives Belle Vue a 3 – 2 race victory, bringing the total accumulated points after heat 11 to 37 – 28 in Sheffield’s favour. Given that in the remaining four heats Sheffield scored 14 points to Belle Vue’s 10, this brings the final totals to 51 – 38 in Sheffield’s favour, giving Sheffield a victory by a single point over the two legs of the Premiership Grand Final.

Except you ard ignoring the rulebook that clearly states the result of a race can not be changed once declared. And secondly these are simply decisions where you disagree with that of the referee.

[4thbender]

2 minutes ago, arnieg said:

Except you ard ignoring the rulebook that clearly states the result of a race can not be changed once declared. And secondly these are simply decisions where you disagree with that of the referee.

Natural justice cannot be overruled.

[TheScotsman]

13 minutes ago, 4thbender said:

Here’s a different view…

If the integrity of speedway racing is to be maintained amongst the panoply of British sporting endeavour, the outcome of the Speedway Premiership Grand Final must be reversed forthwith and awarded to the Sheffield team, on the following basis.

Heats 1 and 3 were the subject of re-runs after riders fell, the riders adjudged to be at fault having been excluded (rightly so) from the re-run. In heat eleven, the rider in white fell and the rider in red was adjudged to have been at fault. In keeping with the correct procedure carried out in the earlier heats, the referee should have initiated a re-run of heat 11 with three riders, the rider in red being excluded. In a totally unprecedented interpretation of the rules however, the referee failed to initiate a re-run, but pre-empted its result by awarding Belle Vue a 5 – 1 race victory… .. in a re-run that had not taken place!

As witnessed by thousands of spectators in the stadium and countless thousands of viewers of the Eurosport TV broadcast, the rider in white failed to finish the race and was laid on the track 80 metres short of the finish line, and yet was inexplicably awarded 3 points (see the referee’s race card), in contravention of the spirit (if not the written rules) of speedway racing, the conventions of which stipulate that points are awarded according to the order of riders crossing the finishing line after the completion of four laps.

It is utterly unconscionable and against the spirit of speedway racing than a race non-finisher, regardless of circumstances, should be arbitrarily awarded a race win ahead of riders who completed four laps and crossed the finish line in open and fair competition.

Having failed to initiate a re-run therefore, the only fair and equitable option open to the referee (with the rider in white having failed to complete the race and the rider in red having been excluded) was to award points to the only two riders to legitimately finish the race, i.e. three points to the rider in yellow and two to the rider in blue. This gives Belle Vue a 3 – 2 race victory, bringing the total accumulated points after heat 11 to 37 – 28 in Sheffield’s favour. Given that in the remaining four heats Sheffield scored 14 points to Belle Vue’s 10, this brings the final totals to 51 – 38 in Sheffield’s favour, giving Sheffield a victory by a single point over the two legs of the Premiership Grand Final.

Someone has started on the alcopops early.

[gazzac]

Over the 2 meetings all BV riders just raised their game at important moments of both meetings, which Sheffield just failed to do. When you see Tom Brennen had 16+1 over the 2 meetings also shouldn't be underestimated, having seen him as a kid at Eastbourne, he's still learning but seems to have the fire like Dan Bewley, just hope he continues on the same path.

[4thbender]

1 minute ago, gazzac said:

Over the 2 meetings all BV riders just raised their game at important moments of both meetings, which Sheffield just failed to do. When you see Tom Brennen had 16+1 over the 2 meetings also shouldn't be underestimated, having seen him as a kid at Eastbourne, he's still learning but seems to have the fire like Dan Bewley, just hope he continues on the same path.

You omitted to add "with the help of the referee" after "BV riders just raised their game".

[TheScotsman]

Just now, 4thbender said:

You omitted to add "with the help of the referee" after "BV riders just raised their game".

You should change where you get your grapes from.

[gazzac]

5 minutes ago, 4thbender said:

You omitted to add "with the help of the referee" after "BV riders just raised their game".

It's always should of, would of, could of with referee's with differing opinions, if early heats had a different outcome, any following heat would not have been the same anyway, the butterfly effect etc.

[4thbender]

22 minutes ago, gazzac said:

It's always should of, would of, could of with referee's with differing opinions, if early heats had a different outcome, any following heat would not have been the same anyway, the butterfly effect etc.

Can anyone provide a single example in the history of speedway when a race non-finisher was awarded three points for a race win, ahead of two other riders who had legitimately finished the race?

[nw42]

6 minutes ago, 4thbender said:

Can anyone provide a single example in the history of speedway when a race non-finisher was awarded three points for a race win, ahead of two other riders who had legitimately finished the race?

I Can't but I know I've seen races awarded on occasion, never felt enraged about the way the points were awarded, would expect the wronged rider to be awarded the points he would have gained had his part in the manoeuvre been successful, the rider who was excluded obviously gets no points.

[Rob B]

The complaints about lack of atmosphere on TV coverage, I’ve noticed this at Belle Vue too, it’s because Eurosport are only putting microphones on home straight.

 So at Sheffield BV fans were on 4th bend only heard from a distance on TV and same at NSS the noise comes from the standing area on back straight but can’t hear it on TV. 

[4thbender]

2 minutes ago, nw42 said:

I Can't but I know I've seen races awarded on occasion, never felt enraged about the way the points were awarded, would expect the wronged rider to be awarded the points he would have gained had his part in the manoeuvre been successful, the rider who was excluded obviously gets no points.

This is an important decision - it affects the outcome of the 2022 Speedway Premiership Grand Final and it seems to hinge upon the referee taking out a crystal ball to predict the outcome of a re-run which never happened. So instead it would appear that the efforts of the two riders who legitimately crossed the line first  - the riders in Yellow and blue (the rider in red having been excluded) - were leap-frogged by a rider lying on the track 80 metres back from the chequered flag. The two legitimate finishers were in no part to blame for the demise of the fallen rider, so I simply put it to you that they are deserving of the points for first and second place respectively. I don't believe this precise situation has ever occurred in 94 years of British speedway history. But it makes a massive difference to the outcome of the single most iconic event of the 2022 British Speedway calendar. I don't know what the ACU will make of it.

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, 4thbender said:

Here’s a different view…

If the integrity of speedway racing is to be maintained amongst the panoply of British sporting endeavour, the outcome of the Speedway Premiership Grand Final must be reversed forthwith and awarded to the Sheffield team, on the following basis.

Heats 1 and 3 were the subject of re-runs after riders fell, the riders adjudged to be at fault having been excluded (rightly so) from the re-run. In heat eleven, the rider in white fell and the rider in red was adjudged to have been at fault. In keeping with the correct procedure carried out in the earlier heats, the referee should have initiated a re-run of heat 11 with three riders, the rider in red being excluded. In a totally unprecedented interpretation of the rules however, the referee failed to initiate a re-run, but pre-empted its result by awarding Belle Vue a 5 – 1 race victory… .. in a re-run that had not taken place!

As witnessed by thousands of spectators in the stadium and countless thousands of viewers of the Eurosport TV broadcast, the rider in white failed to finish the race and was laid on the track 80 metres short of the finish line, and yet was inexplicably awarded 3 points (see the referee’s race card), in contravention of the spirit (if not the written rules) of speedway racing, the conventions of which stipulate that points are awarded according to the order of riders crossing the finishing line after the completion of four laps.

It is utterly unconscionable and against the spirit of speedway racing than a race non-finisher, regardless of circumstances, should be arbitrarily awarded a race win ahead of riders who completed four laps and crossed the finish line in open and fair competition.

Having failed to initiate a re-run therefore, the only fair and equitable option open to the referee (with the rider in white having failed to complete the race and the rider in red having been excluded) was to award points to the only two riders to legitimately finish the race, i.e. three points to the rider in yellow and two to the rider in blue. This gives Belle Vue a 3 – 2 race victory, bringing the total accumulated points after heat 11 to 37 – 28 in Sheffield’s favour. Given that in the remaining four heats Sheffield scored 14 points to Belle Vue’s 10, this brings the final totals to 51 – 38 in Sheffield’s favour, giving Sheffield a victory by a single point over the two legs of the Premiership Grand Final.

As Elsa from Frozen may have sang..

"Let it Go! Let it Go!....

[nw42]

2 minutes ago, Rob B said:

The complaints about lack of atmosphere on TV coverage, I’ve noticed this at Belle Vue too, it’s because Eurosport are only putting microphones on home straight.

 So at Sheffield BV fans were on 4th bend only heard from a distance on TV and same at NSS the noise comes from the standing area on back straight but can’t hear it on TV. 

I thought the atmosphere came over ok, you could hear the fans every time an Aces rider pulled off a move, I was totally engrossed in it, only heard the same from the home crowd a couple of times though.   It was one of those wish I was there nights, brilliant support from the travelling faithful, that sight and sound must have given the riders a lift, definitely worth a few points on the night, who knows if that's what inspired Tom Brennan to greater heights,  I did wish I was there. 

[4thbender]

3 minutes ago, mikebv said:

As Elsa from Frozen may have sang..

"Let it Go! Let it Go!....

This is the speedway equivalent of Mo Salah being brought down by Kyle Walker in City's penalty area in the 90th minute of the cup final with the scores level at 2 - 2 and the ref saying to Mo "Don't bother with the penalty, I'll just award Liverpool the goal." Bet you'd have something to say about that!

[nw42]

8 minutes ago, 4thbender said:

This is an important decision - it affects the outcome of the 2022 Speedway Premiership Grand Final and it seems to hinge upon the referee taking out a crystal ball to predict the outcome of a re-run which never happened. So instead it would appear that the efforts of the two riders who legitimately crossed the line first  - the riders in Yellow and blue (the rider in red having been excluded) - were leap-frogged by a rider lying on the track 80 metres back from the chequered flag. The two legitimate finishers were in no part to blame for the demise of the fallen rider, so I simply put it to you that they are deserving of the points for first and second place respectively. I don't believe this precise situation has ever occurred in 94 years of British speedway history. But it makes a massive difference to the outcome of the single most iconic event of the 2022 British Speedway calendar. I don't know what the ACU will make of it.

Wow, you've got it bad mate, it's over, done with, enjoy it for what it was, a great final on 2 of the fastest tracks you could wish for in this country, yes the gate 3 fiasco was a joke but we still got plenty of good racing and the outcome was in the balance until the later stages.  For me, it's been mentioned by others too, the reason you lost was, in the main, down to your golden boy Jack Holder not getting into the groove when it really counted, also to an extent Kyle Howarth, he can never be accused of not giving his all but on Thursday he just didn't click, maybe too tense.

Just wondering, what with your name and all that, is this bitterness stemming from the fact you had your bend invaded on Thursday?  Must've been awful, all that noise and jubilation.

[Sir Sidney]

2 hours ago, 4thbender said:

Here’s a different view…

If the integrity of speedway racing is to be maintained amongst the panoply of British sporting endeavour, the outcome of the Speedway Premiership Grand Final must be reversed forthwith and awarded to the Sheffield team, on the following basis.

Heats 1 and 3 were the subject of re-runs after riders fell, the riders adjudged to be at fault having been excluded (rightly so) from the re-run. In heat eleven, the rider in white fell and the rider in red was adjudged to have been at fault. In keeping with the correct procedure carried out in the earlier heats, the referee should have initiated a re-run of heat 11 with three riders, the rider in red being excluded. In a totally unprecedented interpretation of the rules however, the referee failed to initiate a re-run, but pre-empted its result by awarding Belle Vue a 5 – 1 race victory… .. in a re-run that had not taken place!

As witnessed by thousands of spectators in the stadium and countless thousands of viewers of the Eurosport TV broadcast, the rider in white failed to finish the race and was laid on the track 80 metres short of the finish line, and yet was inexplicably awarded 3 points (see the referee’s race card), in contravention of the spirit (if not the written rules) of speedway racing, the conventions of which stipulate that points are awarded according to the order of riders crossing the finishing line after the completion of four laps.

It is utterly unconscionable and against the spirit of speedway racing than a race non-finisher, regardless of circumstances, should be arbitrarily awarded a race win ahead of riders who completed four laps and crossed the finish line in open and fair competition.

Having failed to initiate a re-run therefore, the only fair and equitable option open to the referee (with the rider in white having failed to complete the race and the rider in red having been excluded) was to award points to the only two riders to legitimately finish the race, i.e. three points to the rider in yellow and two to the rider in blue. This gives Belle Vue a 3 – 2 race victory, bringing the total accumulated points after heat 11 to 37 – 28 in Sheffield’s favour. Given that in the remaining four heats Sheffield scored 14 points to Belle Vue’s 10, this brings the final totals to 51 – 38 in Sheffield’s favour, giving Sheffield a victory by a single point over the two legs of the Premiership Grand Final.

Or of course you could just read the regulations 

011.1.15Awarding a Heat
If the leading rider has completed at least 2 laps, then the Referee shall 
have the sole discretion to either order a re-run or award the heat based 
upon the positions when it was caused to be stopped; riders, other than the 
one disqualified being advanced one place.
 

So  my interpretation is what caused it to be stopped was Kurtz being hit by Musielak. Therefore, given that at that point Kurtz was on his bike it is perfectly correct for the ref to award him the race win.

The regs are available to download online. No mystery, no secrecy, no conspiracy.

Give it a go. They are quite interesting