Sings4Speedway Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 Been done to death but basic figures that are likely way under what is actually being paid out shows the position PL teams are in. 2000 spectators at £22 = £44,000 (less vat = £35200) based on 100 points paid out (50 home and away) that allows for £350 per point....higher or lower etc as long as the average is £350 per point (and completely ignoring guarantees etc) The 12 home fixtures at £10,000 a meeting to host (rent, medical, flights, fuel, tyres etc) as covered means sponsorships of at least £120,000 per season. Then add all the bells a whistles like vans, visas, accommodation, workshops, race suits, bike covers, team wear and other pre season costs, bonds etc its certainly not hard to see how teams who aren't getting 2000+ fans a week and don't have very good sponsorships are going to fall by the wayside very soon. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said: Been done to death but basic figures that are likely way under what is actually being paid out shows the position PL teams are in. 2000 spectators at £22 = £44,000 (less vat = £35200) based on 100 points paid out (50 home and away) that allows for £350 per point....higher or lower etc as long as the average is £350 per point (and completely ignoring guarantees etc) The 12 home fixtures at £10,000 a meeting to host (rent, medical, flights, fuel, tyres etc) as covered means sponsorships of at least £120,000 per season. Then add all the bells a whistles like vans, visas, accommodation, workshops, race suits, bike covers, team wear and other pre season costs, bonds etc its certainly not hard to see how teams who aren't getting 2000+ fans a week and don't have very good sponsorships are going to fall by the wayside very soon. Which clubs do you reckon are averaging 2000 spectators per meeting throughout the entire season? I would be surprised if many are.Whatever the number you have to factor in concessions, kids for a quid and all that Not sure where the £350 per point comes from. I doubt if many get that much. According to the late Jon Cook it was costing around £20,000 to host a top league meeting in 2018, depending the cost of hiring the particular track. I doubt if that cost is any less today ( that would be the all in cost including points money etc. ). However what is abundantly clear is that whatever way you do the sums there is a massive shortfall between costs and gate money to be made up by sponsors. I don’t don’t how much sponsors pay but unless they are dyed- in-the-wall speedway fans sponsorship has to be at least in part a commercial decision based on exposure to size of audiences and frequency of meetings . The smaller the crowds the harder it is to justify sponsorship. In addition average age of the average speedway fan means there are less and less products to attract them. In a nutshell, I think it is a wonder many teams stay afloat financially. I hate to be negative but I see no way that the decline of this fantastic, unique sport can ever be reversed. I think we also have to face the fact that the world has moved on since speedways Golden Age. Young people these days live a different life and are interested in different things. Less and less people want to hang around in often cold stadiums when they can stay at home and watch Netflix or whatever. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasser90 Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 31 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said: Been done to death but basic figures that are likely way under what is actually being paid out shows the position PL teams are in. 2000 spectators at £22 = £44,000 (less vat = £35200) based on 100 points paid out (50 home and away) that allows for £350 per point....higher or lower etc as long as the average is £350 per point (and completely ignoring guarantees etc) The 12 home fixtures at £10,000 a meeting to host (rent, medical, flights, fuel, tyres etc) as covered means sponsorships of at least £120,000 per season. Then add all the bells a whistles like vans, visas, accommodation, workshops, race suits, bike covers, team wear and other pre season costs, bonds etc its certainly not hard to see how teams who aren't getting 2000+ fans a week and don't have very good sponsorships are going to fall by the wayside very soon. 90% of the riders in premiership are on probably half of that per point. I know for sure if a heat leader in the prem that is on £120 per point, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue witch Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 Lindgren not happy either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarBoy Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, Gasser90 said: 90% of the riders in premiership are on probably half of that per point. I know for sure if a heat leader in the prem that is on £120 per point, Bloody hell he has to put a shift in to make it viable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarBoy Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 36 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said: Been done to death but basic figures that are likely way under what is actually being paid out shows the position PL teams are in. 2000 spectators at £22 = £44,000 (less vat = £35200) based on 100 points paid out (50 home and away) that allows for £350 per point....higher or lower etc as long as the average is £350 per point (and completely ignoring guarantees etc) The 12 home fixtures at £10,000 a meeting to host (rent, medical, flights, fuel, tyres etc) as covered means sponsorships of at least £120,000 per season. Then add all the bells a whistles like vans, visas, accommodation, workshops, race suits, bike covers, team wear and other pre season costs, bonds etc its certainly not hard to see how teams who aren't getting 2000+ fans a week and don't have very good sponsorships are going to fall by the wayside very soon. Just having a rough estimate at KL wages per meeting, based on their current averages: AL) £4k - £6k (guarantee) NK) £1.5k - £1.75k MPT) £1.2k - £1.4k TJ) £900 - £1k KT) £600 - £650 SL) £500-£600 AR) £350-400 Based on topline figures works out just under £12k a meeting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 28 minutes ago, Gasser90 said: 90% of the riders in premiership are on probably half of that per point. I know for sure if a heat leader in the prem that is on £120 per point, Wasn't saying anyone was on that. I was saying that as a potential average across a 1-7 would be the max clubs could possibly afford and thats with 2000+ fans a week. Facts are clubs simply cannot afford to support the current level of rider demanded (or current level of rider demands) something has to or already is giving in a very big way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bojangles Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 28 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said: Wasn't saying anyone was on that. I was saying that as a potential average across a 1-7 would be the max clubs could possibly afford and thats with 2000+ fans a week. Facts are clubs simply cannot afford to support the current level of rider demanded (or current level of rider demands) something has to or already is giving in a very big way. It's not all doom and gloom, and think the figures quoted might be slightly higher than reality. I have it on good authority that Oxford broke even by the start of August last season, and everything after that was pure profit. They probably are getting over 2,000 fans a week, though, but costs can't have been that high if they were able to quickly recoup that loss and then start to make money. Admittedly this is the Championship we are talking about, so costs will be slightly lower, but then there's no TV money either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Bloke Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, StarBoy said: Just having a rough estimate at KL wages per meeting, based on their current averages: AL) £4k - £6k (guarantee) NK) £1.5k - £1.75k MPT) £1.2k - £1.4k TJ) £900 - £1k KT) £600 - £650 SL) £500-£600 AR) £350-400 Based on topline figures works out just under £12k a meeting. I think you might be a little high with some , but as you said "top line". But you can see the problem. 1000, 1200 at best for home meetings at the AFA, to pay for both home and away is a no goer. Some of them are kids, concessions, and you have the dreaded tax to pay as well . I think the days of £120K sponsors are a thing of the past at Lynn. It was rumoured that Mr. Warnes was putting in that kind of money once. A good sponsor for Lynn would be around £50k these days is my guess. Alex has said that he pumped a large wedge of his own money on top of the sponsorship money his company put in. So you can see where Buster is coming from when he says we are over budget. Lynn in the Prem isn't sustainable with our crowds. I'd rather drop down than not be competitive every year, if i'm honest. Edited July 5, 2023 by Bald Bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flappy Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 32 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said: I think you might be a little high with some , but as you said "top line". But you can see the problem. 1000, 1200 at best for home meetings at the AFA, to pay for both home and away is a no goer. Some of them are kids, concessions, and you have the dreaded tax to pay as well . I think the days of £120K sponsors are a thing of the past at Lynn. It was rumoured that Mr. Warnes was putting in that kind of money once. A good sponsor for Lynn would be around £50k these days is my guess. Alex has said that he pumped a large wedge of his own money on top of the sponsorship money his company put in. You can see where Buster is coming from when he says we are over budget. Lynn in the Prem isn't sustainable with our crowds. I'd rather drop down than not be competitive every year, if i'm honest. If this isn't sustainable with what is essentially a championship team can they even compete in the championship. The sport has quite frankly outgrown Buster now and there's no shame in that but both of his clubs need new owners and to be run at a level they can compete at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Bloke Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, Flappy said: If this isn't sustainable with what is essentially a championship team can they even compete in the championship. The sport has quite frankly outgrown Buster now and there's no shame in that but both of his clubs need new owners and to be run at a level they can compete at Lynn's team will be cheaper now with Fred and Picko gone. Buster honouring Artem's deal is probably what's pinching his pocket now, and obviously wouldn't be the case in the Champ. I think Lynn could survive in the lower tier. Especially if they challenging near the top. I don't think the crowds would be down a great deal. Fans like a winning team, and it might attract a few newbies/old fans back in if the team was winning, and be a bit cheaper for the fans. All the Stars need is a new promoter, not an owner, and imo Buster will do all he can to accommodate one at Lynn .Although he seems done with it all, he's a Lynn speedway man at heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarBoy Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 26 minutes ago, Flappy said: If this isn't sustainable with what is essentially a championship team can they even compete in the championship. The sport has quite frankly outgrown Buster now and there's no shame in that but both of his clubs need new owners and to be run at a level they can compete at Surely what Laguta is on alone would cover what a championships wages are? I'm just assuming... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarBoy Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Bald Bloke said: I think you might be a little high with some , but as you said "top line". But you can see the problem. 1000, 1200 at best for home meetings at the AFA, to pay for both home and away is a no goer. Some of them are kids, concessions, and you have the dreaded tax to pay as well . I think the days of £120K sponsors are a thing of the past at Lynn. It was rumoured that Mr. Warnes was putting in that kind of money once. A good sponsor for Lynn would be around £50k these days is my guess. Alex has said that he pumped a large wedge of his own money on top of the sponsorship money his company put in. You can see where Buster is coming from when he says we are over budget. Lynn in the Prem isn't sustainable with our crowds. I'd rather drop down than not be competitive every year, if i'm honest. I'm with you on dropping down 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Bloke Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 34 minutes ago, StarBoy said: I'm with you on dropping down Ideally I'd like a new promotor who needs to off load lots of cash each season, and we stay in the Prem. Otherwise cut your cloth accordingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said: Been done to death but basic figures that are likely way under what is actually being paid out shows the position PL teams are in. 2000 spectators at £22 … 2000 spectators at £22 is highly optimistic. Even if they reached 2000, some would be season ticket holders, and others won’t be paying £22, e.g. concessions, and children (charged at different rates or free). It’s all in a parlous state - hence Sheffield putting riders through unnecessary heats of potentially dangerous muddy riding so they could get to Heat 10 and keep all the gate receipts. Edited July 5, 2023 by Roger Jacobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 5 hours ago, blue witch said: Lindgren not happy either Post on Speedway Friends Facebook says nothing found to be wrong … 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, Roger Jacobs said: Post on Speedway Friends Facebook says nothing found to be wrong … Blixt, the manufacturer of the carburettors has checked them today, all four Kowalski had were legal. Lots of old has beens happy to throw mud on their media though 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazS Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 the fox checked the hen house all ok. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 7 hours ago, StarBoy said: Just having a rough estimate at KL wages per meeting, based on their current averages: AL) £4k - £6k (guarantee) NK) £1.5k - £1.75k MPT) £1.2k - £1.4k TJ) £900 - £1k KT) £600 - £650 SL) £500-£600 AR) £350-400 Based on topline figures works out just under £12k a meeting. That would mean to pay for the away leg of their home match as well, they would need to find around £24k from that home meeting... If that is the case, and that is "average" for teams in Div 1 they would be better putting up say £25k per meeting in prize money.. £15k to the winners, £10k to the losers.. The sport spends a huge amount on salaries but never uses this money to sell itself.. £25k a night, even £20k, (£12k and £8k) would deliver a massive amount of prize money over a season. A massive amount over a season that you could market your sport off the back of it.. Advertise the sport as having "X million" prize money.. They pay out fortunes and nobody outside the sport knows about it.. The costs will be the same the message to the wider public, very, very different... Agree to divvy up the money as they do now No1 the most, No7 the least... Set %'s... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted July 7, 2023 Report Share Posted July 7, 2023 On 7/5/2023 at 5:16 PM, mikebv said: Agree to divvy up the money as they do now No1 the most, No7 the least... Set %'s... No... do it on the centre green at the end of the night in a Crystal Maze style dome with a giant fan blowing the money around and 7 riders grabbing what they can 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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