B.V 72 Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, The Third Man said: Lambert is not the same rider he was the last time he rode here, where was he in the GPs the last time he rode in the UK, where was he this year, that's the comparison to make to show how far he has progressed No where near the difference between Woffinden and Kylmakorpi.Plus its a now swap for Fricke and both now are pretty even riders. Ah just noticed your a Sheffield fan are you one of those people who are happy to win the league against a weakened team.(Its a like for like swap for an injured rider)He's not seen your track in years who knows how well he will go there. Edited October 5, 2022 by B.V 72 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 2 hours ago, The Third Man said: Lambert is not the same rider he was the last time he rode here, where was he in the GPs the last time he rode in the UK, where was he this year, that's the comparison to make to show how far he has progressed You could argue that Musielak has progressed in the time between his last season with Swindon and his first season with Sheffield, but he started on the same average. But using averages for team building the way British Speedway does a rider has to get an average from somewhere. Should Ipswich have got a reduction on Doyle's average as he is no longer World Champion or Belle Vue a reduction on Zagar's average as he is no longer a GP rider? Even if Lambert had been reassessed on an 8:00 average as a new GP rider coming into the league would it would still be lower than the average Fricke as attained this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 2:06 PM, Col said: According to Speedway Stats Lambert last visited Owlerton in 2017 and averaged 6.40 from 2 meetings. Indeed he did, for Newcastle. Some time ago and he's obviously a completely different rider now. That said having not been there for five years isn't going to have things his own way at Owlerton in the final should Sheffield finish the job tomorrow night, that's a long time to have not been to a track and Tigers top four will all fancy beating him. Incidentally I owe @foreverblue an apology, thought Sheffield were in the top flight in 2019 when Robert last rode here but they werent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverblue Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Bagpuss said: Indeed he did, for Newcastle. Some time ago and he's obviously a completely different rider now. That said having not been there for five years isn't going to have things his own way at Owlerton in the final should Sheffield finish the job tomorrow night, that's a long time to have not been to a track and Tigers top four will all fancy beating him. Incidentally I owe @foreverblue an apology, thought Sheffield were in the top flight in 2019 when Robert last rode here but they werent. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Man Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, B.V 72 said: No where near the difference between Woffinden and Kylmakorpi.Plus its a now swap for Fricke and both now are pretty even riders. Ah just noticed your a Sheffield fan are you one of those people who are happy to win the league against a weakened team.(Its a like for like swap for an injured rider)He's not seen your track in years who knows how well he will go there. No, i just can't understand why people can't see how much Lambert has improved in the last few seasons, and why people are saying he is not an improvement on Fricke, are people not looking at the GP scores for the both of them are you one of the BV fans who wants to win at all costs? Edited October 5, 2022 by The Third Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me wolfie Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, The Third Man said: No, i just can't understand why people can't see how much Lambert has improved in the last few seasons, and why people are saying he is not an improvement on Fricke, are people not looking at the GP scores for the both of them are you one of the BV fans who wants to win at all costs? I think they all want to win at all costs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 9 hours ago, The Third Man said: No, i just can't understand why people can't see how much Lambert has improved in the last few seasons, and why people are saying he is not an improvement on Fricke, are people not looking at the GP scores for the both of them are you one of the BV fans who wants to win at all costs? You either use averages or you dont.. As soon as you bring subjectivity into it (which by definition is prejudicial), then you might as well scrap the system.. Personally I think it is a ludicrous way to equalise team strengths as every season their is a huge disparity between the top and bottom and it restricts improvement to teams.. Not to mention the many, many variables that make up a riders average, meaning it isnt a true reflection on their capability v their peers.. However.. If you want to use this system then you have to accept there will be a great many question marks about it which will unearth some strange results... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, mikebv said: You either use averages or you dont.. As soon as you bring subjectivity into it (which by definition is prejudicial), then you might as well scrap the system.. Personally I think it is a ludicrous way to equalise team strengths as every season their is a huge disparity between the top and bottom and it restricts improvement to teams.. Not to mention the many, many variables that make up a riders average, meaning it isnt a true reflection on their capability v their peers.. However.. If you want to use this system then you have to accept there will be a great many question marks about it which will unearth some strange results... The trouble with averages and figures, they DO tell you the truth. However, they don't tell you the STORY behind the truth. Like who finished top of the 1973 British League Division 1 averages? It was Alan Emmett, with an average of 12.00... Trying to equal out team strengths by averages is great in theory. The big issue with theories is that they are just that - theories... Edited October 6, 2022 by chunky 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 5 hours ago, chunky said: The trouble with averages and figures, they DO tell you the truth. However, they don't tell you the STORY behind the truth. Like who finished top of the 1973 British League Division 1 averages? It was Alan Emmett, with an average of 12.00... Trying to equal out team strengths by averages is great in theory. The big issue with theories is that they are just that - theories... The GSA gives you a headline figure, but not the whole story. For example who is better Jake Allen or Michael Palm Toft? Jake Allen 7.02 vs Toft 6.76 if we look at Sept Championship GSA, but Toft 6.87 vs Allen 3.24 If we look at Prem GSAs. Same rider, wildly different conclusions. Then consider factors like home/away splits, riding order number, how old the average is, and that's before we even get onto assessed averages. They are full of anomalies, but I'm struggling to see a better option, my conclusion is they remain the least worst alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtf Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 GSA figures give you facts, whether you like it or not. People now seem to want a different system that deals in feelings or whether someone had a good or bad night here or there. People are then going to argue about how the facts came about. Finishing last by being dog slow or finishing last with a puncture after leading the race for 3 laps is still 0 points from 1 ride. Is Lambert better than Fricke? when he has a good night yes, but when he has a bad night no. The system isn't perfect, but sometimes I don't know what some of you really want. It seems to me some people want something to moan about more than they want to watch 4 guys, racing 4 laps with no brakes. Half of the people on here don't even go or watch speedway these days, they seem to get their kicks by moaning on here. If that is what floats your boat, crack on. For the record, I think Lambert and Fricke are pretty even overall. At the start of the year Fricke was probably better, by the SON, they were pretty level, and at the moment Lambert is the better rider on form. You can argue all you like as to who is better, all I know is I don't mind watching either of them at full tilt on a good racetrack. Belle Vue brought him in to replace one injured GP rider with another, a couple of members of the BSPL spat their dummy out and withdrew the permission with their own self interests at heart, and neither of them were the opposition promotion at the time. Just another example of where independent governance would work better than what we have at the moment. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 2 hours ago, wtf said: GSA figures give you facts, whether you like it or not. Finishing last by being dog slow or finishing last with a puncture after leading the race for 3 laps is still 0 points from 1 ride. Exactly... We have to go by FACTS, not by "What ifs?" 2 hours ago, wtf said: The system isn't perfect, but sometimes I don't know what some of you really want. It seems to me some people want something to moan about more than they want to watch 4 guys, racing 4 laps with no brakes. Half of the people on here don't even go or watch speedway these days, they seem to get their kicks by moaning on here. How many times have I said that? 2 hours ago, wtf said: At the start of the year Fricke was probably better, by the SON, they were pretty level, and at the moment Lambert is the better rider on form. You can argue all you like as to who is better, all I know is I don't mind watching either of them at full tilt on a good racetrack. Agree 100%. As I said, the only way that averages and statistics would be anywhere close to perfect is if every rider rode to their average - which we know will never happen. Some will go up, and some will go down, and you have no idea who is going to be in which group. Welcome to life... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 3 hours ago, arnieg said: They are full of anomalies, but I'm struggling to see a better option, my conclusion is they remain the least worst alternative. That's the way I see it. People just have to realise that they are a guide - nothing else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazS Posted October 6, 2022 Report Share Posted October 6, 2022 like gravity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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