Peter Collins Book

[moxey63]

16 hours ago, nw42 said:

That's the 2nd time you've brought up Peter's brain injury, very unfair of you in my opinion.  I too suffered brain haemorrhage in 2010, August 1st as it happens, which I think is about a month or so before PC had his, I underwent 7hrs of surgery at North Staffs, had platinum coiling inserted, so a fairly serious injury I'm sure you'd agree.  Within 2 months I returned to work, in the insolvency industry, so fairly high pressure and no room for error, yet I managed fine, continued in the role for another 4 years with no issues related to the injury.

So I have to wonder what makes you think that Peter should not be taken at his word?  

As for your comments to Tony Mac, well if it weren't for him we would probably never have got to read in such interesting detail about Peter's early life and career, I found it just about the best speedway book I've read and I've read most of them.

Backtrack- well it was bound to run out of steam since it was dedicated to such a short period in the grand scheme of the sport.

 

 

Trying to win an argument by claiming someone's views should not be given an airing because of a "brain injury" is a bit low. I find PC's points of view fascinating, and if I were him, I would be more critical about the genuine injuries he sustained while riding for the Aces—the leg in 1977 and the shoulder in 1980—which cost him at least another title and another three or four years at the top.

Having read the book, both injuries were the club's fault. Added to that, Belle Vue knew his father had died but didn't tell him until after he'd scored a 12-point maximum for them. I'd have gone ape. Even more illuminating, the poster worried about PC's account of his career being affected by his brain haemorrhage doesn't seem to shy away from criticising someone like Barry Ayres for not succeeding in his racing career.

By all means, give free admission to anyone who rode for the Aces. The truth is though... speedway is so far from the halcyon days when most of them raced.... they wouldn't even want to attend.

  

Edited January 3, 2023 by moxey63

[nw42]

43 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Trying to win an argument by claiming someone's views should not be given an airing because of a "brain injury" is a bit low. I find PC's points of view fascinating, and if I were him, I would be more critical about the genuine injuries he sustained while riding for the Aces—the leg in 1977 and the shoulder in 1980—which cost him at least another title and another three or four years at the top.

Having read the book, both injuries were the club's fault. Added to that, Belle Vue knew his father had died but didn't tell him until after he'd scored a 12-point maximum for them. I'd have gone ape. Even more illuminating, the poster worried about PC's account of his career being affected by his brain haemorrhage doesn't seem to shy away from criticising someone like Barry Ayres for not succeeding in his racing career.

By all means, give free admission to anyone who rode for the Aces. The truth is though... speedway is so far from the halcyon days when most of them raced.... they wouldn't even want to attend.

Regarding Barry Ayres,  from where I sit he more than succeeded at speedway, he got to race it, I never got any nearer than sitting astride Soren Sjosten's bike in the Hyde Rd pit car park as he was preparing to load it up after a meeting, my dad did ask him first,  I was 7, wish I'd known at the time that this would be the highlight of my speedway career.         Coulda woulda shoulda

Edited January 3, 2023 by nw42

[OveFundinFan]

I can’t remember Barry Ayers so don’t know what he was like, but ,yea, riding a speedway bike (which I have not done) I would imagine can get pretty scary, especially pre air fence days.  So hats off to  arty Ayers, he had the courage to have a go.           
I did grass tracking at club level, never really felt scared, perhaps because big open spaces and no hard fencing, just ropes. I do remember one race where 3 of us were close. The 2 in front were battling side by side and I was close behind. It did flash in my mind what would happen if they touched and come down in a heap……blow me the did go down. Fortunately for me one fell to the left, the other fell to the right, leaving me a nice gap to go through.  
I do regret not taking up the offer at Crewe where on some Saturdays they let grass bikes have a go round their huge track, but I never went.

[mikebv]

On 1/3/2023 at 1:19 PM, TonyMac said:

It's a fact confirmed by Graham Brodie, the UK's former No.1 referee.

To be fair...

Well deserved...

I have always loved watching every single one of them refereeing for our entertainment... 

[steve roberts]

7 minutes ago, mikebv said:

To be fair...

Well deserved...

I have always loved watching every single one of them refereeing for our entertainment... 

...especially Frank Ebden whose desire was to complete a meeting before I had had a chance to down a cup of tea!

[fatface]

On 12/27/2022 at 9:49 AM, falcace said:

I have admiration for anyone who gets their head above the parapet and goes for it in life, particularly if that is something dangerous like speedway or stepping into the boxing ring.

 

On 1/2/2023 at 8:46 PM, falcace said:

Hmm. I think you are being a tad disingenuous. To be really clear, I'm talking about you making a few quid in not ideal circumstances. Not PC.

Look, I think your contribution to the nostalgia speedway market has been very good and I've been a happy customer. I think the Kenny Carter and John Berry books stand up against any speedway book ever. And Backtrack had some good stuff before running out of steam. But, I also think the use of a lot of footage in the DVDs is a bit naughty....I assume ITV Sport and BBC Sport haven't handed over distribution rights to these?

I think producing a PC book is also a bit naughty post-brain injury. As a consequence, sadly, I don't think he is a reliable source and his words against others should not be put into print unchallenged. The Belle Vue management past and present are really in a no-win situation, there is nothing to be gained for them coming out against PC, a bona-fide club legend.

Equally, for this particular issue of all ex-riders getting free admission, how can any speedway club operating on fine margins (in realty loss making) start ushering 200+ folk through the gate for free each week. I have long worked in PR and there aint any mileage out of Barry Ayres* heading in free every week. It means very little to the 50+ year olds who might remember him....and literally nothing to any new crowds they need to draw in.

I'm not surprised a PC book has been rolled out. He is a name that still means something to people, hence this thread. But given the health circumstances, I don't agree with it.

 

* sorry to Barry Ayres if he reads this! He had a crack, fair play. But wasn't up to it. I could have chosen from many others. 

 

On 1/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, OveFundinFan said:

I can’t remember Barry Ayers so don’t know what he was like, but ,yea, riding a speedway bike (which I have not done) I would imagine can get pretty scary, especially pre air fence days.  So hats off to  arty Ayers, he had the courage to have a go.           
I did grass tracking at club level, never really felt scared, perhaps because big open spaces and no hard fencing, just ropes. I do remember one race where 3 of us were close. The 2 in front were battling side by side and I was close behind. It did flash in my mind what would happen if they touched and come down in a heap……blow me the did go down. Fortunately for me one fell to the left, the other fell to the right, leaving me a nice gap to go through.  
I do regret not taking up the offer at Crewe where on some Saturdays they let grass bikes have a go round their huge track, but I never went.

 

On 1/3/2023 at 4:10 PM, nw42 said:

Regarding Barry Ayres,  from where I sit he more than succeeded at speedway, he got to race it, I never got any nearer than sitting astride Soren Sjosten's bike in the Hyde Rd pit car park as he was preparing to load it up after a meeting, my dad did ask him first,  I was 7, wish I'd known at the time that this would be the highlight of my speedway career.         Coulda woulda shoulda

I'm really not sure if folk actually read my whole post or are trying to find a way to be affronted. It seems more to me that we agree on riders like Barry Ayres. So, we will leave that at that. 

 

On 1/3/2023 at 3:27 PM, moxey63 said:

Trying to win an argument by claiming someone's views should not be given an airing because of a "brain injury" is a bit low. I find PC's points of view fascinating, and if I were him, I would be more critical about the genuine injuries he sustained while riding for the Aces—the leg in 1977 and the shoulder in 1980—which cost him at least another title and another three or four years at the top.

Having read the book, both injuries were the club's fault. Added to that, Belle Vue knew his father had died but didn't tell him until after he'd scored a 12-point maximum for them. I'd have gone ape. Even more illuminating, the poster worried about PC's account of his career being affected by his brain haemorrhage doesn't seem to shy away from criticising someone like Barry Ayres for not succeeding in his racing career.

By all means, give free admission to anyone who rode for the Aces. The truth is though... speedway is so far from the halcyon days when most of them raced.... they wouldn't even want to attend.

  

I understand that raising the brain injury is uncomfortable. But it is an unavoidable factor in this project. I'm no expert and no-one on here is. But brain haemorrhages are known to change people's personalities - not in all cases - but in some they can result in symptoms of memory loss, paranoia, irritability, anxiety, depression and so on. I have seen this in people I know who have suffered. There are plenty of first hand accounts that suggest that PC also has been adversely effected in one or more of these areas. That's why I question the validity of his take on events and indeed that they should go into print, on the record as it were, without the takes from previous and current BV management or indeed Angela Collins. Given the circumstance and PC's status in the sport, I think this whole area should be handled more sensitively and diplomatically. It hasn't. Hence, I think Tony has been naughty.

On your other points around on track injuries, particularly the 1977 incident. Yes, there is great validity to them. Different times of course, life pre-health and safety rules wasn't all golden.

On 1/2/2023 at 11:19 PM, nw42 said:

That's the 2nd time you've brought up Peter's brain injury, very unfair of you in my opinion.  I too suffered brain haemorrhage in 2010, August 1st as it happens, which I think is about a month or so before PC had his, I underwent 7hrs of surgery at North Staffs, had platinum coiling inserted, so a fairly serious injury I'm sure you'd agree.  Within 2 months I returned to work, in the insolvency industry, so fairly high pressure and no room for error, yet I managed fine, continued in the role for another 4 years with no issues related to the injury.

So I have to wonder what makes you think that Peter should not be taken at his word?  

As for your comments to Tony Mac, well if it weren't for him we would probably never have got to read in such interesting detail about Peter's early life and career, I found it just about the best speedway book I've read and I've read most of them.

Backtrack- well it was bound to run out of steam since it was dedicated to such a short period in the grand scheme of the sport.

 

 

Very pleased to hear you have made such a great recovery.

I'm quite comfortable being the minority view on this. My over-riding concern is that both PC's nor Belle Vue's reputations aren't unnecessarily and unfairly sullied from unfortunate circumstances. My points are perfectly valid and I've yet to hear a convincing challenge to them.

[steve roberts]

4 hours ago, falcace said:

 

 

 

I'm really not sure if folk actually read my whole post or are trying to find a way to be affronted. It seems more to me that we agree on riders like Barry Ayres. So, we will leave that at that. 

 

I understand that raising the brain injury is uncomfortable. But it is an unavoidable factor in this project. I'm no expert and no-one on here is. But brain haemorrhages are known to change people's personalities - not in all cases - but in some they can result in symptoms of memory loss, paranoia, irritability, anxiety, depression and so on. I have seen this in people I know who have suffered. There are plenty of first hand accounts that suggest that PC also has been adversely effected in one or more of these areas. That's why I question the validity of his take on events and indeed that they should go into print, on the record as it were, without the takes from previous and current BV management or indeed Angela Collins. Given the circumstance and PC's status in the sport, I think this whole area should be handled more sensitively and diplomatically. It hasn't. Hence, I think Tony has been naughty.

On your other points around on track injuries, particularly the 1977 incident. Yes, there is great validity to them. Different times of course, life pre-health and safety rules wasn't all golden.

Very pleased to hear you have made such a great recovery.

I'm quite comfortable being the minority view on this. My over-riding concern is that both PC's nor Belle Vue's reputations aren't unnecessarily and unfairly sullied from unfortunate circumstances. My points are perfectly valid and I've yet to hear a convincing challenge to them.

...however I still don't see the issue allowing ex-riders gaining free entry to the clubs they rode for using the examples of the less than dramatic influx that you implied in my earlier post on that particular subject?

[JC!]

Why would a business allow its former (self employed) workers to use its facilities for free, especially in the current climate. Honestly the naivety of some people staggers me, the riders of yesteryear (other than, at most, a handful of legends) got paid and aren't owed anything.

[steve roberts]

25 minutes ago, JC! said:

Why would a business allow its former (self employed) workers to use its facilities for free, especially in the current climate. Honestly the naivety of some people staggers me, the riders of yesteryear (other than, at most, a handful of legends) got paid and aren't owed anything.

...still don't see it as an issue. If I was to call in at my previous place of employment I would be greeted with open arms!

[JC!]

8 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...still don't see it as an issue. If I was to call in at my previous place of employment I would be greeted with open arms!

Did you work at, say, a theatre? Sure they'd just let you in free whenever you wanted even if you just did a 2 month stint.

Come on, I know some people keep anyone who ever rode a speedway bike on an untouchable pedestal but, from a financial perspective, this is ridiculous.

[steve roberts]

9 hours ago, JC! said:

Did you work at, say, a theatre? Sure they'd just let you in free whenever you wanted even if you just did a 2 month stint.

Come on, I know some people keep anyone who ever rode a speedway bike on an untouchable pedestal but, from a financial perspective, this is ridiculous.

I worked within tourism for eleven plus years but really don't see the relevance.

As regards the speedway "agenda" the figure that had been quoted as "200 plus" is seriously off the mark in my opnion and I had given examples of the truer picture. We are not talking about a whole army of "freebies" gaining entry on a weekly basis but turning it into a positive (and I know that it happened at Oxford) having the odd rider presented to the fans via the centre green only added to the entertainment and "nostalgia element" especially when they were able to mix with the fans. Recall the great Ivan Mauger visiting Cowley and the number of people who made a point of meeting him and his willingness to have a chat and sign autographs made for an occasion in itself. My friend's little lad was "over the moon" meeting the great man. Ironic but I personally took the opportunity of having a quick chat with Peter Collins when he stood on the terraces at Cowley on one occasion long after he had stopped riding who was there in support of his son.

However the discussion was about riders who once graced their team and not a general free for all which of course paints a whole different picture and that wasn't the intention proposed by the initiative as I understood it to be?

Edited January 12, 2023 by steve roberts

[JC!]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

I worked within tourism for eleven plus years but really don't see the relevance.

As regards the speedway "agenda" the figure that had been quoted as "200 plus" is seriously off the mark in my opnion and I had given examples of the truer picture. We are not talking about a whole army of "freebies" gaining entry on a weekly basis but turning it into a positive (and I know that it happened at Oxford) having the odd rider presented to the fans via the centre green only added to the entertainment and "nostalgia element" especially when they were able to mix with the fans. Recall the great Ivan Mauger visiting Cowley and the number of people who made a point of meeting him and his willingness to have a chat and sign autographs made for an occasion in itself. My friend's little lad was "over the moon" meeting the great man. Ironic but I personally took the opportunity of having a quick chat with Peter Collins when he stood on the terraces at Cowley on one occasion long after he had stopped riding who was there in support of his son.

However the discussion was about riders who once graced their team and not a general free for all which of course paints a whole different picture and that wasn't the intention proposed by the initiative as I understood it to be?

Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins, as I said 'a handful of legends'....

Would the little lad be delighted to meet someone from the 1979 team who rode there for one season? Of course not.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, JC! said:

Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins, as I said 'a handful of legends'....

Would the little lad be delighted to meet someone from the 1979 team who rode there for one season? Of course not.

Depends what your interpretaion is of legends? To quote PC the likes of Ken Eyre and Eric Broadbelt would be regarded as "legends" in the eyes of some fans having been part of the successful "Aces" triple winners in the early seventies. The remaining members other than PC are no longer with us.

Personally I think a "little lad" meeting any rider past or present would hopefully ignite some interest...totally different, I know, but I recall the days when riders were allowed to take children round on their bikes before H&S put a stop to that. Any interaction can only be a positive thing in my view.

...as an earlier post of mine initiated, taking Oxford as an example, there are only a few of the "Cheetahs" from your chosen year (1979) that live locally so the chance of visiting Cowley would be in the minority. As was/is the case with most teams whereby riders rarely live/lived close to their local track (even fewer now with the reliance on "foreign" imports) so, again, I don't see it as issue.

Of the '79 vintage George Hunter is no longer with us. Les Rumsey resides in Kent, Carl Askew in Aussie, John Hack Manchester, John Barker and Colin Ackroyd (both Eastbourne to my knowledge) the unfortunate Pip Lamb (the midlands) who use to get rousing receptions when he visited, Mick Handley the midlands. Therefore to re-iterate few would make regular visits to Oxford.

When the great Oxford sides of 1985/86 were invited to attend Cowley in 2005(?) under the Wagstaff banner they got a great reception but that was a "one-off" occasion.

To repeat, again, the initiative was for past team members and not a "horses for courses" policy.

Edited January 12, 2023 by steve roberts

[arnieg]

I can see both sides of this. Meeting Dave Mullett at Swingfield grasstrack was one of my 2022 season highlights (and Dave Stallworthy did interviews with Dave, Gordon Kennett and Jamie Luckhurst to keep the track breaks interesting).

On the other Chris Sully is at Leicester every week. Good to see him enjoying his speedway, but I don't think his presence adds to the meeting.

[steve roberts]

9 minutes ago, arnieg said:

I can see both sides of this. Meeting Dave Mullett at Swingfield grasstrack was one of my 2022 season highlights (and Dave Stallworthy did interviews with Dave, Gordon Kennett and Jamie Luckhurst to keep the track breaks interesting).

On the other Chris Sully is at Leicester every week. Good to see him enjoying his speedway, but I don't think his presence adds to the meeting.

...there's a name from the past! Made a few appearances for "The Cheetahs" I remember. I would certainly have a chat with him but would I recognise him unless he turned up wearing his green leathers??

Edited January 12, 2023 by steve roberts

[JC!]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

Depends what your interpretaion is of legends? To quote PC the likes of Ken Eyre and Eric Broadbelt would be regarded as "legends" in the eyes of some fans having been part of the successful "Aces" triple winners in the early seventies. The remaining members other than PC are no longer with us.

Personally I think a "little lad" meeting any rider past or present would hopefully ignite some interest...totally different, I know, but I recall the days when riders were allowed to take children round on their bikes before H&S put a stop to that. Any interaction can only be a positive thing in my view.

...as an earlier post of mine initiated, taking Oxford as an example, there are only a few of the "Cheetahs" from your chosen year (1979) that live locally so the chance of visiting Cowley would be in the minority. As was/is the case with most teams whereby riders rarely live/lived close to their local track (even fewer now with the reliance on "foreign" imports) so, again, I don't see it as issue.

Of the '79 vintage George Hunter is no longer with us. Les Rumsey resides in Kent, Carl Askew in Aussie, John Hack Manchester, John Barker and Colin Ackroyd (both Eastbourne to my knowledge) the unfortunate Pip Lamb (the midlands) who use to get rousing receptions when he visited, Mick Handley the midlands. Therefore to re-iterate few would make regular visits to Oxford.

When the great Oxford sides of 1985/86 were invited to attend Cowley in 2005(?) under the Wagstaff banner they got a great reception but that was a "one-off" occasion.

To repeat, again, the initiative was for past team members and not a "horses for courses" policy.

No, it doesn't depend what my interpretation is, it's up to the individual business owner who the feel would bring, say, minimum of the £20 entry fee worth of value by their presence. But you knew that I guess.

I would hazard a guess that letting a TikTok/ social media influencer in for free would generate more financial value, but that wouldn't fit the narrative  would it? Let's keep talking about the 'good old days'

No need to keep repeating yourself, everyone knows that it is past team members (former self employed workers under previous owners).

[steve roberts]

21 minutes ago, JC! said:

No, it doesn't depend what my interpretation is, it's up to the individual business owner who the feel would bring, say, minimum of the £20 entry fee worth of value by their presence. But you knew that I guess.

I would hazard a guess that letting a TikTok/ social media influencer in for free would generate more financial value, but that wouldn't fit the narrative  would it? Let's keep talking about the 'good old days'

No need to keep repeating yourself, everyone knows that it is past team members (former self employed workers under previous owners).

...well the narrative on the forum is always that it's "oldies" who attend speedway so why not engage with them? I knew someone who hadn't been to speedway for years but word got out that Arne Pander was to make an appearance at Cowley and he went along to acknowledge his hero from the past and liked what he saw and became "hooked" all over again. Trying to attract a younger audience is another problem and requires a different mandate and which has been discussed time and again and there's no quick fix unfortunatey...and yes we know that it's past team members but a previous post that instigated this debate appeared to refer things were somewhat different? Just correcting that little observation to make it clear.

Edited January 12, 2023 by steve roberts

[topaz325]

Only started reading the book that covers Peters early life and he certainly packed a lot into his childhood and youth, also how close he was with other guys from an early age who would go on to race Speedway, Chris and Dave Morton, Dave Trownson, Andy Reid (or  am I mixing up with another Andy Reid) and later Graham Drury.

[JC!]

10 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...well the narrative on the forum is always that it's "oldies" who attend speedway so why not engage with them? Trying to attract a younger audience is another problem and requires a different mandate and which has been discussed time and again and there's no quick fix unfortunatey...and yes we know that it's past team members but a previous post that instigated this debate appeared to refer things were somewhat different? Just correcting that little observation to make it clear.

Clearly your argument is emotional rather than based in any form of business logic, so best just agree to disagree.

 

[steve roberts]

2 hours ago, JC! said:

Clearly your argument is emotional rather than based in any form of business logic, so best just agree to disagree.

 

I'd agree to disagree also but I would be interested to hear from Swindon Fans how popular the 'Legends Lounge' was and whether it attracted people to the speedway who otherwise wouldn't attend if only to chew the fat with ex"Budgies"?