Peter Collins Book

[keepturningleft]

Having just finished reading the section in PC’s book about the free pass issue, I have to say that I am with PC on this one.

I can equate this with some personal experience of my own.

For nearly 25 years I was technical director of a theatre in a Northern college where our students across three year groups, performed in total, around 10 shows throughout the year most of which were open to the public.

With reasonable frequency over the years, former staff/tutors would return to watch shows and renew acquaintances. There was no question of charging them to come in. These were people who, in the main, had made important and valued contributions to the department through the years and the idea of charging them would have been embarrassing and demeaning.

I can’t even recall this subject ever coming up for discussion at any staff meeting.

I mean, how many former Belle Vue riders can there be that live in or near Manchester? A tiny handful. It seems quite mean spirited of the BV management to stick with such rigid formality rather than show some heart, waive the entrance fee and instead wave these valued old timers in.

If PC had not been able to secure the aces future at the greyhound stadium after the Hyde road closure, it’s almost certain that Belle Vue speedway would have disappeared into complete oblivion and the management and staff currently enjoying their positions at the NSS wouldn’t even be there because the NSS would never have been built.

BV owe Peter Collins a heck of a lot!

 

 

 

 

[fatface]

12 minutes ago, keepturningleft said:

Having just finished reading the section in PC’s book about the free pass issue, I have to say that I am with PC on this one.

I can equate this with some personal experience of my own.

For nearly 25 years I was technical director of a theatre in a Northern college where our students across three year groups, performed in total, around 10 shows throughout the year most of which were open to the public.

With reasonable frequency over the years, former staff/tutors would return to watch shows and renew acquaintances. There was no question of charging them to come in. These were people who, in the main, had made important and valued contributions to the department through the years and the idea of charging them would have been embarrassing and demeaning.

I can’t even recall this subject ever coming up for discussion at any staff meeting.

I mean, how many former Belle Vue riders can there be that live in or near Manchester? A tiny handful. It seems quite mean spirited of the BV management to stick with such rigid formality rather than show some heart, waive the entrance fee and instead wave these valued old timers in.

If PC had not been able to secure the aces future at the greyhound stadium after the Hyde road closure, it’s almost certain that Belle Vue speedway would have disappeared into complete oblivion and the management and staff currently enjoying their positions at the NSS wouldn’t even be there because the NSS would never have been built.

BV owe Peter Collins a heck of a lot!

 

 

 

 

I worked at Tesco's for 4 years as a student. Can you believe they won't let have free food now?

There's a difference in your comparison.

No one would question the right for PC to enter for free as a lifetime guest of honour. But riders who were paid for their time back in the 80s and 90s....Mark Crang, Bernie Collier, Barry Ayres, Paul Embley and hundreds of other wannabees, why should they get lifetime passes - that's the issue.

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by falcace

[fatface]

14 hours ago, martinmauger said:

Was at an Ivan Mauger talk-in and when asked about the Mortons brothers he said "there was no difference (in ability) between Dave & Chris Morton, until Dave got injured", think it was from when Dave broke his thigh; at Hackney in 1976 ?....

Interesting, I don't agree though. Chris was always bound for better things than Dave. Even being 2-3 years younger, he had reached a World Final and won the British under 21 title. Dave hadn't. I do think Dave could have been better though were it not for bad injuries, 

[bruno]

I've not read the book yet but how many freebies did PC want. Agree he should have got a lifetime pass not sure of hangers on tho

[Wee Eck]

1 hour ago, bruno said:

I've not read the book yet but how many freebies did PC want. Agree he should have got a lifetime pass not sure of hangers on tho

I’m led to believe about 180 - and not just for ex-riders. Several on the list were friends or people who’d worked for him, not necessarily relating to speedway. He was told any ex-BV rider would receive free admission. They just had to phone up and a ticket would be provided. But he wanted permanent physical passes so they didn’t have to phone up. There’s not a track in the country that would allow that. And no guarantee that a future promotion would feel bound to honour that. 
It’s a shame. The guy was a decent rider, not the best who ever rode for BV nor the best ever English rider, but he was loyal to the Aces and helpful, but little more than that, when John Perrin paid to open up at the Kirkmanshulme Lane greyhound stadium. 
I’m not sure if Kirky Lane would have opened without PC’s input, but it certainly wouldn’t have without John Perrin’s money. IMO

[TonyMac]

23 hours ago, Wee Eck said:

In truth, PC has no knowledge of that. He wasn’t part of the consortium and, despite his recollection, his views on the NSS were never sought nor offered. My understanding is that his only involvement has been his well documented reaction to being refused life time passes for nearly 200 friends, helpers and employees, very few of whom had ever had anything to with Belle Vue. 

He certainly does have inside knowledge of the unhappy (for him) 18 months or so when he WAS part of the original consortium at Kirky Lane, along with John Perrin, Norman Smith and Don Bowes, as he recalls in great detail in the book.

In the book, PC knowledge of events involving subsequent regimes is largely supported and embellished by George Carswell, who was heavily involved through the years with numerous promotions as a major investor who ultimately lost hundreds of thousands of pounds financing BV. 

As for your comments re. passes, they are wide of the mark. Again, PC states the facts in his book.

Edited December 24, 2022 by TonyMac

[TonyMac]

21 hours ago, martinmauger said:

Was at an Ivan Mauger talk-in and when asked about the Mortons brothers he said "there was no difference (in ability) between Dave & Chris Morton, until Dave got injured", think it was from when Dave broke his thigh; at Hackney in 1976 ?....

Dave's bad crash which badly broke his thigh was on May 13, 1977 - Hackney v Poole.

He had averaged a career-best 10.18 from 36 league and KO Cup matches in a brilliant 1976.

Or 10.28 from 32 BL matches, which saw him finish eighth in the overall BL averages.

[TonyMac]

6 hours ago, falcace said:

I worked at Tesco's for 4 years as a student. Can you believe they won't let have free food now?

There's a difference in your comparison.

No one would question the right for PC to enter for free as a lifetime guest of honour. But riders who were paid for their time back in the 80s and 90s....Mark Crang, Bernie Collier, Barry Ayres, Paul Embley and hundreds of other wannabees, why should they get lifetime passes - that's the issue.

 

It's about context and respect. As keepturningleft pointed out: 'How many former Belle Vue riders can there be that live in or near Manchester? A tiny handful. It seems quite mean spirited of the BV management to stick with such rigid formality rather than show some heart, waive the entrance fee and instead wave these valued old timers in.'

In fairness to the current BV regime, my understanding from speaking to several ex-Aces who have attended meetings this year, the club management's policy seems to be that all-ex BV riders ARE admitted free of charge . . . BUT they first have to contact Mark Lemon to get the OK from him. That obviously wouldn't be necessarily (and would save Mark time having to reply to requests) if BV simply issued the handful who wish to attend a seasonal pass with a passport-style photo that cannot be transferred to a mate or anyone else.

It must be a little demeaning for prominent ex-riders, including one legend (not PC), to have to phone or text Lemon to get his permission. For this reason I know of one ex-Ace who, to avoid embarrassment, either just stays away or pays to get in.

It shouldn't be this way.

As for the lesser lights you mentioned, my purely personal view if that everyone who put their neck on the line for any club in at least six official senior matches should be offered a season pass. If I was running a track, I'd want the ex-riders to feel welcome. If they are, they are so much more likely to spread positive vibes about the speedway, which can only be a good thing when the paying support is diminishing at most venues.

[TonyMac]

3 hours ago, Wee Eck said:

I’m led to believe about 180 - and not just for ex-riders. Several on the list were friends or people who’d worked for him, not necessarily relating to speedway. He was told any ex-BV rider would receive free admission. They just had to phone up and a ticket would be provided. But he wanted permanent physical passes so they didn’t have to phone up. There’s not a track in the country that would allow that. And no guarantee that a future promotion would feel bound to honour that. 
It’s a shame. The guy was a decent rider, not the best who ever rode for BV nor the best ever English rider, but he was loyal to the Aces and helpful, but little more than that, when John Perrin paid to open up at the Kirkmanshulme Lane greyhound stadium. 
I’m not sure if Kirky Lane would have opened without PC’s input, but it certainly wouldn’t have without John Perrin’s money. IMO

Again, your facts appear to be wrong. According to PC, Perrin didn't put in any money at the outset (it's all in the book, which you don't seem to have read). On the other hand, as front man, PC raised all the money needed to buy the riding assets and BL1 licence from Stuart Bamforth through sponsorship and donations. Norman Smith was repaid the tens of thousands he spent building the speedway track out of gate receipts, not Perrin's pocket.

Edited December 24, 2022 by TonyMac

[Wee Eck]

55 minutes ago, TonyMac said:

Again, your facts appear to be wrong. According to PC, Perrin didn't put in any money at the outset (it's all in the book, which you don't seem to have read). On the other hand, as front man, PC raised all the money needed to buy the riding assets and BL1 licence from Stuart Bamforth through sponsorship and donations. Norman Smith was repaid the tens of thousands he spent building the speedway track out of gate receipts, not Perrin's pocket.

I am happy to stick to my views, borne from knowledge rather than conjecture. 
My comment on the funding was that PC didn’t put any money in to Kirky Lane, something you confirm.
On the topic of the NSS, again, I stick by my comments. I don’t know how much money George put in to BV over the years but as far as the NSS was concerned, he was shown as a creditor for around £90k when BV went into liquidation in 2016/17. I am told that PC was never consulted by Chris Morton or David Gordon as far as the NSS is concerned. His recollection to the contrary is not correct. I’m sure Mort has told you that and told you why. 

[Elmo]

Got a signed copy for Christmas, looking forward  to reading it.

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, Elmo said:

Got a signed copy for Christmas, looking forward  to reading it.

Got mine as well...looking forward to reading it!

[fatface]

On 12/24/2022 at 5:12 PM, TonyMac said:

It's about context and respect. As keepturningleft pointed out: 'How many former Belle Vue riders can there be that live in or near Manchester? A tiny handful. It seems quite mean spirited of the BV management to stick with such rigid formality rather than show some heart, waive the entrance fee and instead wave these valued old timers in.'

In fairness to the current BV regime, my understanding from speaking to several ex-Aces who have attended meetings this year, the club management's policy seems to be that all-ex BV riders ARE admitted free of charge . . . BUT they first have to contact Mark Lemon to get the OK from him. That obviously wouldn't be necessarily (and would save Mark time having to reply to requests) if BV simply issued the handful who wish to attend a seasonal pass with a passport-style photo that cannot be transferred to a mate or anyone else.

It must be a little demeaning for prominent ex-riders, including one legend (not PC), to have to phone or text Lemon to get his permission. For this reason I know of one ex-Ace who, to avoid embarrassment, either just stays away or pays to get in.

It shouldn't be this way.

As for the lesser lights you mentioned, my purely personal view if that everyone who put their neck on the line for any club in at least six official senior matches should be offered a season pass. If I was running a track, I'd want the ex-riders to feel welcome. If they are, they are so much more likely to spread positive vibes about the speedway, which can only be a good thing when the paying support is diminishing at most venues.

Sorry Tony, I can't buy that.

Unless we have the exact number and names between Wee Eck's 180 and your "tiny handful" it's pure conjecture. I also can't go with the notion of riders "putting their neck on the line". I have admiration for anyone who gets their head above the parapet and goes for it in life, particularly if that is something dangerous like speedway or stepping into the boxing ring. But let's not pretend they are risking their lives for some greater noble cause and sacrifice. These are not volunteers marching off to war. They are sports people in it primarily for selfish reasons, personal glory and remuneration. Without those, they wouldn't be doing it. In PC's case, often very well remunerated, squeezing out as much as he could get from BV in his latter seasons. And fair play to him too...it's a short and dangerous career.

What makes me uncomfortable about this book is that it is a one sided take from someone who has had a brain injury. This has had an effect and as such, his interpretations are questionable at least. And, to be really, really honest, it's only been published because there is a few quid in it. We can't take it as some sort of historical document without the views of all other parties involved be they past and current BV management. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I was a big fan of PC and I've enjoyed lots of your output over the years. But let's say this as it is.

[steve roberts]

14 minutes ago, falcace said:

Sorry Tony, I can't buy that.

Unless we have the exact number and names between Wee Eck's 180 and your "tiny handful" it's pure conjecture. I also can't go with the notion of riders "putting their neck on the line". I have admiration for anyone who gets their head above the parapet and goes for it in life, particularly if that is something dangerous like speedway or stepping into the boxing ring. But let's not pretend they are risking their lives for some greater noble cause and sacrifice. These are not volunteers marching off to war. They are sports people in it primarily for selfish reasons, personal glory and remuneration. Without those, they wouldn't be doing it. In PC's case, often very well remunerated, squeezing out as much as he could get from BV in his latter seasons. And fair play to him too...it's a short and dangerous career.

What makes me uncomfortable about this book is that it is a one sided take from someone who has had a brain injury. This has had an effect and as such, his interpretations are questionable at least. And, to be really, really honest, it's only been published because there is a few quid in it. We can't take it as some sort of historical document without the views of all other parties involved be they past and current BV management. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I was a big fan of PC and I've enjoyed lots of your output over the years. But let's say this as it is.

...blimey I've only just started reading it! I'm intrigued to find out what all the fuss is about?

[TonyMac]

6 hours ago, falcace said:

What makes me uncomfortable about this book is that it is a one sided take from someone who has had a brain injury. This has had an effect and as such, his interpretations are questionable at least. And, to be really, really honest, it's only been published because there is a few quid in it.

Aren't all autobiographies by definition a one-sided take.

But, as I mentioned previously, much of what PC has written about respective BV managements is supported in print by George Carswell, who was financially involved under all regimes from John Perrin to David Gordon/Chris Morton.

Believe me, PC didn't decide to write his story for money. If so, he would have done it many years ago, when speedway had a far bigger following and more fans from his peak racing era were still around.

I accept your view that riders know the risks when they begin and that they go into it hoping to earn a living. And PC did very well out of speedway - no doubt - as did the sport out of him. But, come on, some goodwill from all tracks towards their past employees wouldn't go amiss - and wouldn't cost them a penny.

To make ex-riders pay (or ask) to get in is, of course, not a crime and it's every promoter's right to dictate his own policy. But it's churlish, mean-spirited and short-sighted when tracks need all the good PR they can muster in these financially ominous times. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by TonyMac

[keepturningleft]

Wonder if Brenda Craven and her family have to phone ahead to gain admittance to the Peter Craven memorial trophy meeting …

[moxey63]

The part of the brilliant PC book I found of most interest is when he became the promoter and his experience of working with John Perrin. I laughed at the punch-up at the Swinton club between Perrin and his co-promoter, Don Bowes. I think I actually have the pamphlet from that evening.

Mr. Perrin was a colourful character, not everyone's cuppa, but surely there are enough stories out there from riders who rode for him to retell in a book. I'd read it.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by moxey63

[Gordon Pairman]

On 12/27/2022 at 4:28 PM, TonyMac said:

But, as I mentioned previously, much of what PC has written about respective BV managements is supported in print by George Carswell, who was financially involved under all regimes from John Perrin to David Gordon/Chris Morton.

Just to set the record straight, and I have only good things to say about George Carswell, a man who was owed even more than I was when BV went bust in 2016, but he had no involvement in the Tony Mole years at Belle Vue nor the Pairman/Morton/Gordon ones, financial or otherwise.

[Speedtiger]

14 hours ago, Gordon Pairman said:

Just to set the record straight, and I have only good things to say about George Carswell, a man who was owed even more than I was when BV went bust in 2016, but he had no involvement in the Tony Mole years at Belle Vue nor the Pairman/Morton/Gordon ones, financial or otherwise.

You both carnt be right then…or is it a case of recollections vary?

[Gordon Pairman]

4 hours ago, Speedtiger said:

You both carnt be right then…or is it a case of recollections vary?

I don’t know about recollections. George was living and working in Canada during the period in question. Tony Mole ran all his speedway operations through one business of which he was the sole owner. In the short time I was involved - we set up the company in 2006 and I ceased to be a promoter after the end of the 2009 season - as I said, George had no financial involvement.