Sheffield Tigers 2023

[Bagpuss]

1 minute ago, Call me wolfie said:

Did 6 or 7 regular league meetings also, not just the playoffs though. That’s a big difference. I do agree though that averages should be fairly reassessed after a rider chooses not to ride here for a couple of seasons.

I'd say even one season or just doing a few meetings and not getting an up to date average. You could make a decent argument that Bewley should be reassessed considering his progress in 2022.

[stevebrum]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:19 AM, Bagpuss said:

I'd absolutely support reassessment on an annual basis for riders who don't ride here for the record.

Didn't Tai sign for Wolves on a seven something at the end of the season a few years ago?

Completely agree.

Any rider that has a year out of British Speedway should be reassessed before the next new season.Some riders have made massive strides in their career since out of racing.

Lambert was a completely different rider in 23, it’s a mockery to bring a rider in on a false average.

Lidsey has had 2 seasons of progress in the toughest league in the world yet gets to keep his outdated British average. Bonkers, another false average.

Bellego has progressed in the world of speedway yet comes back on his last British average from years ago. Bonkers again and another false average.

Woffy coming in for a wolves in 2016 ruffled plenty of feathers because he was a world champion on his low real average and this was one that seemed to stir this whole hornets nest that we have now and the one that seemed to stick in the teeth of Aces fans mostly (but happy to use that now).

I think the common factor is that fans don’t like riders coming back and using outdated averages at a gain to other clubs (unless it’s the fans of the club that get the advantage I guess). It seemed that loophole was closed but reopened to suit any club or promoter asking. 
 

I think for transparency (not a word the BSPL seem to like) riders missing 12 months from the UK get an annual reassessment based on their Polish and Swedish averages. Surely any rider who rides in the GP should at least be a 9 surely? Minimum 8.

I don’t think any fan would begrudge riders being fairly assessed on their current ability, not an outdated one. 

[szkocjasid]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:02 AM, Bagpuss said:

I'd say even one season or just doing a few meetings and not getting an up to date average. You could make a decent argument that Bewley should be reassessed considering his progress in 2022.

You could make that argument for Woffy, but not Bewley - especially as he's already on a 9 point ave!

[szkocjasid]

2 hours ago, stevebrum said:

Completely agree.

Any rider that has a year out of British Speedway should be reassessed before the next new season. Some riders have made massive strides in their career since out of racing.

I don’t think any fan would begrudge riders being fairly assessed on their current ability, not an outdated one. 

The Speedway Star interview with Bradley Wilson-Dean stated his Champ average has gone up to 8.77, making it hard for him to get a club, because he has missed a season.

I had never heard of this rule & it's clearly not in place for the Prem, maybe it's the Championship's plan to help Brits, but they are not keen on it for the Prem as they want to encourage the top riders back?

Edited March 13, 2023 by szkocjasid

[mikebv]

4 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

The Speedway Star interview with Bradley Wilson-Dean stated his Champ average has gone up to 8.77, making it hard for him to get a club, because he has missed a season.

I had never heard of this rule & it's clearly not in place for the Prem, maybe it's the Championship's plan to help Brits, but they are not keen on it for the Prem as they want to encourage the top riders back?

I think 'wanting to get the top riders back' has to be influencing some of the averages to be used in the top league...

However, the sport needs to avoid as much 'subjectivity' as possible, being delivered by those who inevitably may have a vested interest in the  outcome, so using some 'actual info' is at least based on fact and not opinion...

And some of the riders who are returning rode against much better opponents when they were last here so gauging them now would be very subjective indeed...

An 8 point minimum for GP riders would cover most bases, with anything higher being down to their actual last average when they rode last over here...

Edit : Maybe they should do a ranking level based on individuals Poland, Sweden, The UK, and FIM event results? The Top 20 could then be a minimum 8 with a sliding scale as you go down to say the top 50..

eg The top ten are a minimum 8.5, the next ten are an 8,, the next ten are 7.5, the next ten are 7, and the last ten in the best fifty  riders are 6.5...

Edited March 13, 2023 by mikebv

[Roger Jacobs]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:12 AM, stevebrum said:

Wasn’t Zmarzlik a 7 or 7.5 when he rode for Birmingham?

still think it’s fair to bring him back in that?

jesus wept indeed.

Have you read the new Regulations?

[Bagpuss]

8 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

You could make that argument for Woffy, but not Bewley - especially as he's already on a 9 point ave!

Yep I thought he was under nine, probably getting his British reduction confused. Would suggest he should be nice minimum, Emil too really. 

Lidsey certainly should be reassessed. No criticism of BV, they are taking advantage and good luck to them. 

[Cue Ball]

In case you haven’t seen it… Press and practice has moved from Thursday to next Wednesday 

[stevebrum]

On 3/13/2023 at 1:01 AM, szkocjasid said:

The Speedway Star interview with Bradley Wilson-Dean stated his Champ average has gone up to 8.77, making it hard for him to get a club, because he has missed a season.

I had never heard of this rule & it's clearly not in place for the Prem, maybe it's the Championship's plan to help Brits, but they are not keen on it for the Prem as they want to encourage the top riders back?

Tough on BWD but he is a top rider in that league so reducing his average would also have been grossly unfair.

19 hours ago, Roger Jacobs said:

Have you read the new Regulations?

Not all of them yet. The point remains.

[Roger Jacobs]

4 hours ago, stevebrum said:

Tough on BWD but he is a top rider in that league so reducing his average would also have been grossly unfair.

Not all of them yet. The point remains.

"010.2.3 Amended MA's
With the approval of the BSP LTD GC or Directors for: -
a) riders who have been absent from British Speedway racing for
more than 3 seasons (The MA may be increased or decreased)
b) riders who have been absent for more than 1 full season due to
a speedway injury ..."

Not sure which point remains, because that's the same as last season - and why Lambert was able to return on his previous average. No idea why the BSPA hasn't changed it. Ironically, I believe Lambert's average would now be subject to potential amendment, and Zmarzlik's average would most likely be amended - up or down

It seems that for new riders, there's a grading system to decide on their assessed average, although I don't think the system has been published - the BSPA will probably work something out if they need to, and the details will never be published.

 

[mikebv]

2 hours ago, Roger Jacobs said:

"010.2.3 Amended MA's
With the approval of the BSP LTD GC or Directors for: -
a) riders who have been absent from British Speedway racing for
more than 3 seasons (The MA may be increased or decreased)
b) riders who have been absent for more than 1 full season due to
a speedway injury ..."

Not sure which point remains, because that's the same as last season - and why Lambert was able to return on his previous average. No idea why the BSPA hasn't changed it. Ironically, I believe Lambert's average would now be subject to potential amendment, and Zmarzlik's average would most likely be amended - up or down

It seems that for new riders, there's a grading system to decide on their assessed average, although I don't think the system has been published - the BSPA will probably work something out if they need to, and the details will never be published.

 

Hopefully with Phil Morris in charge such lack of transparency will be a thing of the past...

Maybe more regulations in "black and white" will result, rather than the (deliberate I presume), many ones that allow subjectivity to be used in reaching a decision.. 

Which results in many "outsiders looking in", believing "who you are in the grand scheme of things", gets you the decisions you want...

There could easily (like many other individual sports do), be a world ranking list, based on riders performances around the globe..

And then use that to clearly define what assessed averages will be...

Edited March 14, 2023 by mikebv

[B.V 72]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:12 PM, stevebrum said:

Wasn’t Zmarzlik a 7 or 7.5 when he rode for Birmingham?

still think it’s fair to bring him back in that?

jesus wept indeed.

Lamberts 7 + average to replace Fricke is not the point really. Even if he had been reassessed to an 8 which seems to be the average that returning g p riders are assessed at he was replacing a rider on a 8.55 average so what's your point.

[mikebv]

10 minutes ago, B.V 72 said:

Lamberts 7 + average to replace Fricke is not the point really. Even if he had been reassessed to an 8 which seems to be the average that returning g p riders are assessed at he was replacing a rider on a 8.55 average so what's your point.

Is it "He should have been on 8.56?".....

[Bagpuss]

37 minutes ago, B.V 72 said:

Lamberts 7 + average to replace Fricke is not the point really. Even if he had been reassessed to an 8 which seems to be the average that returning g p riders are assessed at he was replacing a rider on a 8.55 average so what's your point.

This is a good point and I hadn't thought of it. Personally I'd say riders of his calibre should be 9 but as you say if it was 8 he'd have fitted anyway. 

[stevebrum]

16 hours ago, Roger Jacobs said:

"010.2.3 Amended MA's
With the approval of the BSP LTD GC or Directors for: -
a) riders who have been absent from British Speedway racing for
more than 3 seasons (The MA may be increased or decreased)
b) riders who have been absent for more than 1 full season due to
a speedway injury ..."

Not sure which point remains, because that's the same as last season - and why Lambert was able to return on his previous average. No idea why the BSPA hasn't changed it. Ironically, I believe Lambert's average would now be subject to potential amendment, and Zmarzlik's average would most likely be amended - up or down

It seems that for new riders, there's a grading system to decide on their assessed average, although I don't think the system has been published - the BSPA will probably work something out if they need to, and the details will never be published.

 

My point is that riders missing a season in the UK SHOULD be reassessed annually. 3 years is too long for some riders who can return on a paltry average having improved massively within those 3 years (Lidsey is a prime example of that). That was my point.

12 hours ago, B.V 72 said:

Lamberts 7 + average to replace Fricke is not the point really. Even if he had been reassessed to an 8 which seems to be the average that returning g p riders are assessed at he was replacing a rider on a 8.55 average so what's your point.

That is indeed a different point. We should not be encouraging riders to return ONLY for the play offs to help themselves and that team to glory.

now of course this will depend on your viewpoint if riders being allowed to ride here only for the play offs because of a proven injury or the long standing replacement for injury only from those teams out the play offs.

Neither of them is really the answer. 
I still say it depends on who asks if a replacement is allowed as to whether it’s granted, and I doubt that will change.

Hopefully Morris will add integrity and transparency to the league rules and running. 

[Bald Bloke]

36 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

My point is that riders missing a season in the UK SHOULD be reassessed annually. 3 years is too long for some riders who can return on a paltry average having improved massively within those 3 years (Lidsey is a prime example of that). That was my point.

That is indeed a different point. We should not be encouraging riders to return ONLY for the play offs to help themselves and that team to glory.

now of course this will depend on your viewpoint if riders being allowed to ride here only for the play offs because of a proven injury or the long standing replacement for injury only from those teams out the play offs.

Neither of them is really the answer. 
I still say it depends on who asks if a replacement is allowed as to whether it’s granted, and I doubt that will change.

Hopefully Morris will add integrity and transparency to the league rules and running. 

The first point 100%. If the first happens, that should stop the 2nd happening  to some extent. But riders will come for the money, if allowed.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by Bald Bloke

[Clive Ward]

If a rider who is 5th in the world can come and ride in this country on an 8 average what would the assessed average of a rider who is 15 in the world?
Like a lot Lynn fans I’ve followed Robert since he was riding for Lynn in the national league but it still doesn’t make it right that he can come back and ride on an 8 average

 

[Roger Jacobs]

On 3/15/2023 at 5:40 AM, stevebrum said:

... We should not be encouraging riders to return ONLY for the play offs to help themselves and that team to glory. ...

You still make it sound as if this was done deliberately. It only happened because of injury.

Definitely agree with your point about Morris - he has a battle on his hands not just to remove ambiguity, but also to deal with the strongest personalities among the promoters.

[Bagpuss]

26 minutes ago, Roger Jacobs said:

You still make it sound as if this was done deliberately. It only happened because of injury.

Definitely agree with your point about Morris - he has a battle on his hands not just to remove ambiguity, but also to deal with the strongest personalities among the promoters.

Spot on, that's the key point that seems to get missed. Whether he should have been reassessed is another argument, but he wasn't and fitted to replace an injured rider. Which is much more preferable to a guest (eurgh) or R/R. 

[B.V 72]

On 3/12/2023 at 10:35 PM, stevebrum said:

Completely agree.

Any rider that has a year out of British Speedway should be reassessed before the next new season.Some riders have made massive strides in their career since out of racing.

Lambert was a completely different rider in 23, it’s a mockery to bring a rider in on a false average.

Lidsey has had 2 seasons of progress in the toughest league in the world yet gets to keep his outdated British average. Bonkers, another false average.

Bellego has progressed in the world of speedway yet comes back on his last British average from years ago. Bonkers again and another false average.

Woffy coming in for a wolves in 2016 ruffled plenty of feathers because he was a world champion on his low real average and this was one that seemed to stir this whole hornets nest that we have now and the one that seemed to stick in the teeth of Aces fans mostly (but happy to use that now).

I think the common factor is that fans don’t like riders coming back and using outdated averages at a gain to other clubs (unless it’s the fans of the club that get the advantage I guess). It seemed that loophole was closed but reopened to suit any club or promoter asking. 
 

I think for transparency (not a word the BSPL seem to like) riders missing 12 months from the UK get an annual reassessment based on their Polish and Swedish averages. Surely any rider who rides in the GP should at least be a 9 surely? Minimum 8.

I don’t think any fan would begrudge riders being fairly assessed on their current ability, not an outdated one. 

You also need to look at other leagues before you comment on averages. Lidsey is going well in Poland. But if you look at the Swedish league averages for riders signed this year from a 7 team league you will find that there are 38 riders with a better average than Lidsey so not that great.and with Swedish tracks being a lot closer to our tracks its hard to say how well he will go here. I expect he will go well at home( big track like Poland) but who knows about away tracks.Also Bellego sits next to him on the average list so another one who goes better in Poland than Sweden.