Peterborough Panthers 2023

[chrismorton]

When you see photos like that it does feel like game over :-(.  ..any positive updates?

[Crump99]

On 1/17/2024 at 9:16 PM, chrismorton said:

When you see photos like that it does feel like game over :-(.  ..any positive updates?

That's what AEPG want you to think but the basics are all still there and putting that right is easier and cheaper than starting from scratch. Don't fall for it. Read Save Coventry Speedway if you want a positive update. Much of that ruling can be applied to our situation and Butterfield and Co will have more than that incoming in 2024.

[Crump99]

On 1/17/2024 at 2:30 PM, Mick Bratley said:

It’s not just DHL there are other companies doing the same work there now Vauxhall, Audi and Tesla in addition to DHL . . . . but don’t tell anybody, they don’t want anyone to know.

Hopefully someone spills the beans at their planning appeal.

[Flappy]

Hard not to feel that Panthers won't ever ride at the showground again and the fight must be to force AEPG and he council to find some lad and build a new stadium as per the local plan.

[OldNutter]

3 hours ago, Flappy said:

Hard not to feel that Panthers won't ever ride at the showground again and the fight must be to force AEPG and he council to find some lad and build a new stadium as per the local plan.

Looking through the Coventry files (well done to one of my old tracks - would love to go to their opening night!), it might be a lot better to stay where they are and fight for the whole showground to be restored to green uses as well as the speedway,  If the grandstand survives the most likely damage usual in these cases, together with the car parking, superb access from the A1 and the security fences, it would be a helluva lot less for the consortium to fund in the first instance to justify carrying on where they were.

[bigcatdiary]

4 hours ago, Flappy said:

Hard not to feel that Panthers won't ever ride at the showground again and the fight must be to force AEPG and he council to find some lad and build a new stadium as per the local plan.

I am sure that’s Butterfield's plan to convince all supporters their is no chance of speedway ever returning to the Showground, what I did find interesting is the EOE Agricultural Society’s decision to open the Showground up for the local hunt brigade for a dog show, that surely weakens their argument that they had shut the Showground down to everything to enable the planning application to get approved.

What he clearly hasn't taken into consideration is the supporters plan to stop the planning application from ever getting approved, at the moment we are still awaiting what the Environmental Agency findings will be in relation to the recent poisoning of thousands of fish at Ferry Meadows, it’s likely the local water courses have been contaminated by something, I do wonder what could have possibly caused this, local farmers or local businesses that work near Ferry Meadows.

[Mick Bratley]

12 hours ago, bigcatdiary said:

I am sure that’s Butterfield's plan to convince all supporters their is no chance of speedway ever returning to the Showground, what I did find interesting is the EOE Agricultural Society’s decision to open the Showground up for the local hunt brigade for a dog show, that surely weakens their argument that they had shut the Showground down to everything to enable the planning application to get approved.

What he clearly hasn't taken into consideration is the supporters plan to stop the planning application from ever getting approved, at the moment we are still awaiting what the Environmental Agency findings will be in relation to the recent poisoning of thousands of fish at Ferry Meadows, it’s likely the local water courses have been contaminated by something, I do wonder what could have possibly caused this, local farmers or local businesses that work near Ferry Meadows.

Be very timely if the Environmental Agency findings are released today or tomorrow morning ahead of AEPGs second revised planning application for the DHL business which is being heard tomorrow afternoon at the Town Hall at 13:30. Be magnificent if those findings accuse AEPG of their businesses killing 100,000 fish.

[Crump99]

Can anyone decipher this in plain English in terms of Peterborough Speedway? (not what you think it means, only if you actually know)

We urgently need evidence, which we will submit, in two areas to assist our Asset of Community Value application.

1) whether Peterborough Speedway is or has in the recent past being used to further social wellbeing or the social interests of the local community which is not an ancillary use.

2) whether it is realistic to think that such a use if current may continue in the future or if it was in the recent past may occur at a time in the next five years.

[Toady]

48 minutes ago, Crump99 said:

Can anyone decipher this in plain English in terms of Peterborough Speedway? (not what you think it means, only if you actually know)

We urgently need evidence, which we will submit, in two areas to assist our Asset of Community Value application.

1) whether Peterborough Speedway is or has in the recent past being used to further social wellbeing or the social interests of the local community which is not an ancillary use.

2) whether it is realistic to think that such a use if current may continue in the future or if it was in the recent past may occur at a time in the next five years.

I don’t know if this helps ? https://historicengland.org.uk/content/docs/legal/appeal-decision-oxford-stadium/

[Daniel Smith]

50 minutes ago, Crump99 said:

Can anyone decipher this in plain English in terms of Peterborough Speedway? (not what you think it means, only if you actually know)

We urgently need evidence, which we will submit, in two areas to assist our Asset of Community Value application.

1) whether Peterborough Speedway is or has in the recent past being used to further social wellbeing or the social interests of the local community which is not an ancillary use.

2) whether it is realistic to think that such a use if current may continue in the future or if it was in the recent past may occur at a time in the next five years.

Seems reasonably simple. 

Basically asking if the Speedway brings anything to the community outside the sport excluding match days. 

Schools, charitable work, community gatherings etc. 

It's a fair argument to the use of grounds as Speedway is once a fortnight for 6 months. 

[OldNutter]

These sorts of stuff can be somewhat "imaginative" and even somewhat nebulous.  Think about a football stadium - 24-ish days a year for  90 minutes probably equates to or is even less than a two-team speedway venue.  Any team sport, particularly a geographically-based one generates supporters and they are a substantial element of local wellbeing.  The loss of speedway at the showground could be said to reducing the numbers of the community in Peterborough from visiting other entertainment and eating/drinking local facilities to exchange chat about their local speedway team.  I would say a major part of the value that Posh brings to the community in Peterborough can also similarly justifiably be used to support the need for speedway in the town ( at the showground, where it has been for years.)  All meetings/events of the Supporters Club or equivalent also add to the community of a local sporting activity and improve the well being of that community.

Travelling fans bring value to places around town like petrol stations, ev charging points, hotels and restaurants and lots of other businesses in the city.

There must be many more things that come into this holistic view off the value of a local speedway team beyond just the actual meetings.  And none of these are provided by loads of houses.

[Crump99]

3 hours ago, Toady said:

I don’t know if this helps ? https://historicengland.org.uk/content/docs/legal/appeal-decision-oxford-stadium/

Not sure either but will have a look. Anything like that is always interesting though and education which can be saved in the file anyway so thanks for that

Edited January 23 by Crump99

[Hackney]

1 hour ago, OldNutter said:

These sorts of stuff can be somewhat "imaginative" and even somewhat nebulous.  Think about a football stadium - 24-ish days a year for  90 minutes probably equates to or is even less than a two-team speedway venue.  Any team sport, particularly a geographically-based one generates supporters and they are a substantial element of local wellbeing.  The loss of speedway at the showground could be said to reducing the numbers of the community in Peterborough from visiting other entertainment and eating/drinking local facilities to exchange chat about their local speedway team.  I would say a major part of the value that Posh brings to the community in Peterborough can also similarly justifiably be used to support the need for speedway in the town ( at the showground, where it has been for years.)  All meetings/events of the Supporters Club or equivalent also add to the community of a local sporting activity and improve the well being of that community.

Travelling fans bring value to places around town like petrol stations, ev charging points, hotels and restaurants and lots of other businesses in the city.

There must be many more things that come into this holistic view off the value of a local speedway team beyond just the actual meetings.  And none of these are provided by loads of houses.

Sorry I might be missing your point but would the residents of these new houses not use the local amenities ?

I am sure the Harvester for example would get more trade from permanent residents against speedway fans ?

[Daniel Smith]

4 hours ago, OldNutter said:

These sorts of stuff can be somewhat "imaginative" and even somewhat nebulous.  Think about a football stadium - 24-ish days a year for  90 minutes probably equates to or is even less than a two-team speedway venue.  Any team sport, particularly a geographically-based one generates supporters and they are a substantial element of local wellbeing.  The loss of speedway at the showground could be said to reducing the numbers of the community in Peterborough from visiting other entertainment and eating/drinking local facilities to exchange chat about their local speedway team.  I would say a major part of the value that Posh brings to the community in Peterborough can also similarly justifiably be used to support the need for speedway in the town ( at the showground, where it has been for years.)  All meetings/events of the Supporters Club or equivalent also add to the community of a local sporting activity and improve the well being of that community.

Travelling fans bring value to places around town like petrol stations, ev charging points, hotels and restaurants and lots of other businesses in the city.

There must be many more things that come into this holistic view off the value of a local speedway team beyond just the actual meetings.  And none of these are provided by loads of houses.

Is this a serious post?? Football stadiums are 24 days for 90mins??

Club shops 7 days a week, executive suites 7 days a week, 7 days a week restaurants, function suites, stadium tours, charity work, 100s of office staff required 7 days a week. 

[noaksey]

49 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Is this a serious post?? Football stadiums are 24 days for 90mins??

Club shops 7 days a week, executive suites 7 days a week, 7 days a week restaurants, function suites, stadium tours, charity work, 100s of office staff required 7 days a week. 

Plus Football stadiums are, in the main, owned by the clubs themselves 

[Daniel Smith]

9 minutes ago, noaksey said:

Plus Football stadiums are, in the main, owned by the clubs themselves 

Absolutely 

[OldNutter]

11 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

Absolutely 

Not really anywhere near the full story -  Man City and West Ham for example.  Most football grounds are owned separately from the club and oddly, it is the lower league league clubs that tend to own their grounds -  Walsall for example have recently managed to return the Bescot ground to being owned by the club and are now paying mortgage cash not rent!..  The size differential between the likes of Spurs and Man U and such as Forest Green makes comparisons between football and anything else somewhat pointless.  Many clubs (eg Man City/West Ham) who do not own their grounds split the ownerships into the football and F&B  services income.  Most EFL clubs only have between 50 and 150 actual employees.  Most of the off pitch activity is business to make money not sport.  If you actually look at most sports, the actual sport activity is minimal in a business/ownership sense and they would not even exist financially without all of the ancillary cash raising activities like F & B, overpriced merchandise, weddings and company meetings etc.

If we are going to fight on to retain the speedway at the showground we will need to use all of the ammunition we can and delving down into real facts and tenuous supporting links will be vital.  If you doubt that, have a look through the huge pile of paperwork that Coventry Speedway (who did own their stadium and lost the lot in the first instance) have released about their fight.  The Peterborough consortium have quite a fight ahead and we will have to support them the whole way.

[Daniel Smith]

3 hours ago, OldNutter said:

Not really anywhere near the full story -  Man City and West Ham for example.  Most football grounds are owned separately from the club and oddly, it is the lower league league clubs that tend to own their grounds -  Walsall for example have recently managed to return the Bescot ground to being owned by the club and are now paying mortgage cash not rent!..  The size differential between the likes of Spurs and Man U and such as Forest Green makes comparisons between football and anything else somewhat pointless.  Many clubs (eg Man City/West Ham) who do not own their grounds split the ownerships into the football and F&B  services income.  Most EFL clubs only have between 50 and 150 actual employees.  Most of the off pitch activity is business to make money not sport.  If you actually look at most sports, the actual sport activity is minimal in a business/ownership sense and they would not even exist financially without all of the ancillary cash raising activities like F & B, overpriced merchandise, weddings and company meetings etc.

If we are going to fight on to retain the speedway at the showground we will need to use all of the ammunition we can and delving down into real facts and tenuous supporting links will be vital.  If you doubt that, have a look through the huge pile of paperwork that Coventry Speedway (who did own their stadium and lost the lot in the first instance) have released about their fight.  The Peterborough consortium have quite a fight ahead and we will have to support them the whole way.

Manchester United & Peterborough Panthers is comparable with the original point. 

The discussion was with regards to the use of grounds & what Peterborough Panthers offers to the local community. 

The answer as a whole is nothing & you tried to argue that football stadiums / clubs are the same, it's absolutely not.

Many football clubs, even at 'None League' level offer far far more to the community than any British Speedway club. 

Why should the land owners keep a stadium functional for Peterborough Panthers just for, at most, 30 days a year??

Coventry has a much better argument due to it's multi use functionality with Speedway, Stockcars & potentially Greyhounds again. Peterborough doesn't offer that. 

[OldNutter]

4 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

...Why should the land owners keep a stadium functional for Peterborough Panthers just for, at most, 30 days a year?? 

Coventry has a much better argument due to it's multi use functionality with Speedway, Stockcars & potentially Greyhounds again. Peterborough doesn't offer that. 

I couldn't agree more with that first sentence.  However, I seem to remember either last year or 2022 there was a big Monster Truck event in the infield - it did quite a lot of damage to the grass if I remember right!  That sort of event and many other social events that need a decent open area with a grandstand for spectators could use that space a lot.  Last year was a bad one for such things, because the last thing our owner wanted to do was  any time marketing something he had little heart  in other  than just getting to the end of the season in one piece, but it could be done by new progressive management.  Coventry and Rye House had Go Karts on the infield and the last time I went to Rye House just before it closed, there was a cross-country buggy course in the infield.  Add the new rules about having to have at least two league teams and/or junior meetings and speedway would be a lot busier as well.  Also, our position on the A1 would make the site attractive to the northern based Stock Car/Hot Rod drivers if the extra barriers were incorporated into the new fence that will need to be built anyway to replace the one that was taken down - Big Saturday Night F1 BRISCA Stox anyone?.

That sort of spread of sport and community events was what I was aiming at, not the dead hand we were forced to have at the tiller last year because of the blindfolded Butterfield curse.  We need imagination of the type that the likes of the Oxford re-birth that showed could be made to happen and we have a much better site for that than Oxford have had to make the most of.

[Daniel Smith]

1 minute ago, OldNutter said:

I couldn't agree more with that first sentence.  However, I seem to remember either last year or 2022 there was a big Monster Truck event in the infield - it did quite a lot of damage to the grass if I remember right!  That sort of event and many other social events that need a decent open area with a grandstand for spectators could use that space a lot.  Last year was a bad one for such things, because the last thing our owner wanted to do was  any time marketing something he had little heart  in other  than just getting to the end of the season in one piece, but it could be done by new progressive management.  Coventry and Rye House had Go Karts on the infield and the last time I went to Rye House just before it closed, there was a cross-country buggy course in the infield.  Add the new rules about having to have at least two league teams and/or junior meetings and speedway would be a lot busier as well.  Also, our position on the A1 would make the site attractive to the northern based Stock Car/Hot Rod drivers if the extra barriers were incorporated into the new fence that will need to be built anyway to replace the one that was taken down - Big Saturday Night F1 BRISCA Stox anyone?.

That sort of spread of sport and community events was what I was aiming at, not the dead hand we were forced to have at the tiller last year because of the blindfolded Butterfield curse.  We need imagination of the type that the likes of the Oxford re-birth that showed could be made to happen and we have a much better site for that than Oxford have had to make the most of.

And I agree with that. The problem there is the landowners don't want other events, Monster Trucks, Stock Cars, TruckFest etc. The only product fighting to remain is the 'not cost effective' Speedway. 

The only way Peterborough Speedway will return to the Showground is if the promoter / owner (whoever that ends up being) pays significant yearly rent & organise events outside of the sport to try recouping the outlay.