Peterborough Panthers 2023

[Sully]

18 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said:

At first glance it looks like the club is worth what  the lights, air fence are worth. Should be an easy straightforward deal on the face of it. But, I did read on here several months ago, that there is something written in a contract( i think) that says that if the stadium was demolished, a new site and amenities would have to be provided? If that is the case, and it does eventually happen, Peterborough speedway will have a safe new stadium, and be worth a lot more money.. 

If this is correct, then unfortunately, the sale might drag on for a while yet?

 

You’d be buying any equipment owned by “Peterborough speedway ltd” (lights, air fence, tractors? Etc) and the licence. Would a licence be the same value for any club regardless of circumstances?

[1 valve]

22 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said:

At first glance it looks like the club is worth what  the lights, air fence are worth. Should be an easy straightforward deal on the face of it. But, I did read on here several months ago, that there is something written in a contract( i think) that says that if the stadium was demolished, a new site and amenities would have to be provided? If that is the case, and it does eventually happen, Peterborough speedway will have a safe new stadium, and be worth a lot more money.. 

If this is correct, then unfortunately, the sale might drag on for a while yet?

 

On the matter of valuation. When it comes to an acquisition it will be necessary to determine if the intended purchase is that of a "going concern" or an "asset  purchase". If it is the latter then you are correct, it should be straightforward to reach an agreement of the value of the material assets in question.
However, the current owner is within his rights to regard this as a sale of a business (it is immaterial that it does not have a place to ply trade from) and as such the valuation of a going concern would be required(even if not currently trading). This will  then take into account both tangible and intangible assets.
Put another way, the current owner would not just be selling lights and a safety fence, but the club name, history and license to promote etc  and so should a place be found to ply the trade by the new owners then they would immediately benefit from the goodwill (intangible asset) involved i.e. the  supporter base, sponsors, Press relations to name a few.
The alternative being, amongst other things, buy new lights safety fence, track equipment find a place to trade (hold meetings) then apply for a promoters license for a new club using a new name. 

It will be interesting to see which way this matter goes. Maybe the current owner will wish to be charitable. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by 1 valve

[pleasureboy60]

2 minutes ago, Sully said:

You’d be buying any equipment owned by “Peterborough speedway ltd” (lights, air fence, tractors? Etc) and the licence. Would a licence be the same value for any club regardless of circumstances?

 Chapman doesn't want speedway at Peterborough, that's why he won't cooperate or sell. He wants Panthers supporters at Lynn next year.

[Sully]

1 minute ago, pleasureboy60 said:

 Chapman doesn't want speedway at Peterborough, that's why he won't cooperate or sell. He wants Panthers supporters at Lynn next year.

I’m no lover of buster and frustrated that this couldn’t have happened a while ago to give more time to try and reach a solution for next year, but I struggle to believe he actively wants the club to close. 

[Bald Bloke]

6 minutes ago, 1 valve said:

On the matter of valuation. When it comes to an acquisition it will be necessary to determine if the intended purchase is that of a "going concern" or an "asset only purchase purchase". If it is the latter then you are correct, it should be straightforward to reach an agreement of the value of the required material assets.
However, the current owner is almost certain to regard this as a sale of a business (it is immaterial that it does not have a place to ply trade from) and as such the valuation of a going concern (even if not currently trading) will take into account both tangible and intangible assets.
Put another way, the current owner would not just be selling lights and a safety fence, but the club name, history and license to promote etc  and so should a place be found to ply the trade then the new owners would immediately benefit from the goodwill (intangible asset) involved i.e. the  supporter base, sponsors, Press relations to name a few. The alternative being, amongst other things, buy new lights safety fence, track equipment find a place to trade (hold meetings) then apply for a promoters license for a new club using a new name. 
It will be interesting to see which way this matter goes.

Thanks. Put a lot better than i could 

[1 valve]

35 minutes ago, Sully said:

You’d be buying any equipment owned by “Peterborough speedway ltd” (lights, air fence, tractors? Etc) and the licence. Would a licence be the same value for any club regardless of circumstances?

The valuation of license (as a legal contract) would be one of an intangible definite asset (as opposed to an indefinite one) where the value does not appear on the balance sheet but where the owner/company can apply its own asking price/valuation leaving the buyer to decide if he wishes to pay that price. 
So the valuation of a license can and will differ from club to club no matter the circumstance.

Edited October 11, 2023 by 1 valve

[Daniel Smith]

24 minutes ago, 1 valve said:

On the matter of valuation. When it comes to an acquisition it will be necessary to determine if the intended purchase is that of a "going concern" or an "asset  purchase". If it is the latter then you are correct, it should be straightforward to reach an agreement of the value of the material assets in question.
However, the current owner is within his rights to regard this as a sale of a business (it is immaterial that it does not have a place to ply trade from) and as such the valuation of a going concern would be required(even if not currently trading). This will  then take into account both tangible and intangible assets.
Put another way, the current owner would not just be selling lights and a safety fence, but the club name, history and license to promote etc  and so should a place be found to ply the trade by the new owners then they would immediately benefit from the goodwill (intangible asset) involved i.e. the  supporter base, sponsors, Press relations to name a few.
The alternative being, amongst other things, buy new lights safety fence, track equipment find a place to trade (hold meetings) then apply for a promoters license for a new club using a new name. 

It will be interesting to see which way this matter goes. Maybe the current owner will wish to be charitable. 

Tried explaining this loads but Peterborough fans keep saying "there's nothing to sell". They don't seem to realise the rights Chapman holds. 

They don't understand Chapman owns the rights to the team being called 'Peterborough' in the city. He owns the the naming rights of 'Panthers'. Regardless of the fans opinion Chapman sees that these things have a monetary value & those are to be valued as he sees fit. If he wants £10k or £1m, that's the price, if it's not paid they'll be no 'Peterborough' 'Panthers'. 

[Bald Bloke]

2 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Tried explaining this loads but Peterborough fans keep saying "there's nothing to sell". They don't seem to realise the rights Chapman holds. 

They don't understand Chapman owns the rights to the team being called 'Peterborough' in the city. He owns the the naming rights of 'Panthers'. Regardless of the fans opinion Chapman sees that these things have a monetary value & those are to be valued as he sees fit. If he wants £10k or £1m, that's the price, if it's not paid they'll be no 'Peterborough' 'Panthers'. 

Agree. What i was trying to say, 1 Valve  has summed it up perfectly. If Buster sold it for next to nothing now, and a year down the line the developers had to provide another site and stadium, Buster would have lost a lot of money. I'm pretty sure Buster's asking price has that in mind.

[arnieg]

7 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said:

Agree. What i was trying to say, 1 Valve  has summed it up perfectly. If Buster sold it for next to nothing now, and a year down the line the developers had to provide another site and stadium, Buster would have lost a lot of money. I'm pretty sure Buster's asking price has that in mind.

Just put in a sell on clause. If a new stadium materialises then further payment is due to Buster. Common in land sales where if planning permission is subsequently obtained by the new owner some of that increase in value is returned to the old owner.

[Pinny]

Those who have been sticking up for Chapman need to give their heads a huge shake.

If there is a party willing to take Peterborough Speedway off his hands, just let them have it FFS. The way he has conducted himself this season has been an absolute joke.

What is there to actually sell?

Lynn's fans have been sick of him for a long time. And that farewell meeting is nothing short of a disgrace. Clearly put together on the cheap hoping for a huge crowd and one last big payday for him. Shameful.

Despite his son being a flash pr**k in some peoples eyes, the minute he left Kings Lynn the place went downhill.

I get that Chapman is a businessman and has lost a chunk of money at Peterborough but that in itself should tell you that he has two options. 1. Take whatever amount he is being offered or 2. Keep hold of it and make absolutely nothing back. If he is this astute businessman that people have claimed, he should be taking option 1.

It all reminds me of 2012 at Newport when Phil Morris was trying to buy Newport Speedway from the Mallett family and they wouldn't sell, instead leaving the place derelict and vandalized until the landlords reclaimed it and sold it on to another haulage company. Bitter at the thought of seeing someone else making a go of it. That is exactly what seems to be happening here.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Pinny

[bigcatdiary]

50 minutes ago, pleasureboy60 said:

 Chapman doesn't want speedway at Peterborough, that's why he won't cooperate or sell. He wants Panthers supporters at Lynn next year.

Not sure I agree with that, Peterborough running speedway offers him big gates every time we meet, he has said loads of times he would sell the Panthers if the right offer came along and it’s clear he wants to cut down his involvement in running speedway both at Peterborough and Lynn.

Apart from a small amount the chance of enough supporters making the trip down the A47 to make it worthwhile is minimal, let’s be fair Peterborough supporters have been used to to the very best ( when our track man gets it right) Lynn racing is generally poor and at worst dreadful.

Given the choice most won’t bother ( me included) and to be fair Chapman should know this, he has been told enough times.

 

[Pinny]

2 minutes ago, bigcatdiary said:

Not sure I agree with that, Peterborough running speedway offers him big gates every time we meet, he has said loads of times he would sell the Panthers if the right offer came along and it’s clear he wants to cut down his involvement in running speedway both at Peterborough and Lynn.

Apart from a small amount the chance of enough supporters making the trip down the A47 to make it worthwhile is minimal, let’s be fair Peterborough supporters have been used to to the very best ( when our track man gets it right) Lynn racing is generally poor and at worst dreadful.

Given the choice most won’t bother ( me included) and to be fair Chapman should know this, he has been told enough times.

 

I always get confused at these comments that fans of a club thats closed will go and watch their nearest rivals. Especially a club ran by the guy who run their own club into the ground. Fans don't travel in numbers to watch speedway once their track has shut. They may do for a meeting or two but it soon stops.

When Newport closed, I had absolutely no intention of going to Swindon or Somerset. Never the same thing.

[Crump99]

44 minutes ago, Pinny said:

I get that Chapman is a businessman and has lost a chunk of money at Peterborough but that in itself should tell you that he has two options. 1. Take whatever amount he is being offered or 2. Keep hold of it and make absolutely nothing back. If he is this astute businessman that people have claimed, he should be taking option 1.

Has he lost a chunk of money? That's not a criticism but with good crowds and sponsors I do wonder what the books look like?

As for 1 or 2 you're spot on: an astute businessman would negotiate around 1 to get the best that they can but accept that that may not get 100% of what they want. Rumours and communications during the season seem to indicate that he is choosing 2 for some reason? That position will damage the sport generally and his other business interest within it so not so astute perhaps?

[Gambo]

If a deal doesn't happen, Chapman surely just gets the tangible assets value (air fence, lights tractors) if they can be sold on. So no need to be greedy?

[Pinny]

8 minutes ago, Crump99 said:

Has he lost a chunk of money? That's not a criticism but with good crowds and sponsors I do wonder what the books look like?

As for 1 or 2 you're spot on: an astute businessman would negotiate around 1 to get the best that they can but accept that that may not get 100% of what they want. Rumours and communications during the season seem to indicate that he is choosing 2 for some reason? That position will damage the sport generally and his other business interest within it so not so astute perhaps?

Hey Crump99,

I was just stating what I have read on here in the years since Chapman took over. If he has made money out of it, then that's even more of a reason to negotiate the sale of whatever resembles the club.

The fact is Chapman is a guy who has been involved in speedway for decades so he should first and foremost have the clubs interests at heart. And he obviously doesn't. That farewell meeting line up was appalling and a massive smack in the face to loyal Panthers fans who turn up and pay week in week out to watch them, regardless of form.

If he did sell and in a year or so Peterborough are back at a new home and a roaring success, he wouldn't stand the thought of it. He'd rather the club went to the wall.

[Daniel Smith]

1 hour ago, Pinny said:

Those who have been sticking up for Chapman need to give their heads a huge shake.

If there is a party willing to take Peterborough Speedway off his hands, just let them have it FFS. The way he has conducted himself this season has been an absolute joke.

What is there to actually sell?

Lynn's fans have been sick of him for a long time. And that farewell meeting is nothing short of a disgrace. Clearly put together on the cheap hoping for a huge crowd and one last big payday for him. Shameful.

Despite his son being a flash pr**k in some peoples eyes, the minute he left Kings Lynn the place went downhill.

I get that Chapman is a businessman and has lost a chunk of money at Peterborough but that in itself should tell you that he has two options. 1. Take whatever amount he is being offered or 2. Keep hold of it and make absolutely nothing back. If he is this astute businessman that people have claimed, he should be taking option 1.

It all reminds me of 2012 at Newport when Phil Morris was trying to buy Newport Speedway from the Mallett family and they wouldn't sell, instead leaving the place derelict and vandalized until the landlords reclaimed it and sold it on to another haulage company. Bitter at the thought of seeing someone else making a go of it. That is exactly what seems to be happening here.

Don't think anyone is sticking up for Chapman. Just highlighting to the delusional that Peterborough Speedway has a value, whether that's as a going concern or not. 

Didn't we see a similar situation of Horton even blocking the use of 'Coventry Bees' by a fans group or something similar? Can't remember. 

All we're saying is Chapman sees value in what he holds & that's his perogative, regardless of our opinions. I'm by far a fan of Chapman, he & Allitt are the reason I no longer attend King's Lynn, but it doesn't mean I have to lose sight of reality. 

[Pinny]

Just now, Daniel Smith said:

Don't think anyone is sticking up for Chapman. Just highlighting to the delusional that Peterborough Speedway has a value, whether that's as a going concern or not. 

Didn't we see a similar situation of Horton even blocking the use of 'Coventry Bees' by a fans group or something similar? Can't remember. 

All we're saying is Chapman sees value in what he holds & that's his perogative, regardless of our opinions. I'm by far a fan of Chapman, he & Allitt are the reason I no longer attend King's Lynn, but it doesn't mean I have to lose sight of reality.  

You are one of the fans I was referring to when I mentioned Lynn fans being fed up of him for years. I was talking about Bald Bloke more than anyone as all season long he has defended Chapman.

 

[SPEEDY69]

I think it was Chapman who stepped in to save Peterborough a few years ago wasn't it?  Can't see why he'd want to dig his heels in no matter what was offered to him, he was prepared to sell before but had no written offers - ' put your money where your mouth is' comes to mind.  I agree though that this season it hasn't looked like he's been trying to extend or move elsewhere but I'm only on the very outskirts of this and have no knowledge of what's actually been going on.  Offer a fair price and that should result in a sale (future value increase clause included or not).

Edited October 11, 2023 by SPEEDY69

[Bald Bloke]

14 minutes ago, Pinny said:

You are one of the fans I was referring to when I mentioned Lynn fans being fed up of him for years. I was talking about Bald Bloke more than anyone as all season long he has defended Chapman.

 

I’ve had plenty of moments over the years where I’ve had a good moan about Buster and the Lynn team. I know he’s far from perfect..

But this season I think he has taken the blame for everything at both clubs, unfairly sometimes. He was as good as retired at the start of the season, but has had to step in at both clubs for no fault of his own, and has managed to keep them going until the end of the season.He signed riders near the end of the season for PB that gave his KL the wooden spoon.

[Pinny]

9 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said:

I’ve had plenty of moments over the years where I’ve had a good moan about Buster and the Lynn team. I know he’s far from perfect..

But this season I think he has taken the blame for everything at both clubs, unfairly sometimes. He was as good as retired at the start of the season, but has had to step in at both clubs for no fault of his own, and has managed to keep them going until the end of the season.He signed riders near the end of the season for PB that gave his KL the wooden spoon.

I do wonder the logic behind that to be fair. It's a weird one. Was it actually Chapman paying for those riders?