Tyre Investigation

[mikebv]

5 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Scott nicholls in the star this week saying because of the wheel spin you can’t expect a tyre (any tyre) to do 5 races especially round Peterborough, now where have seen this said before ? But does he go on to talk about a solution to the problem ? 

I seem to remember at Peterborough they stopped the 6 lap Ht15's that used to take place when Sky covered it..

Specifically for the issue that the tyres were wearing too much at that track.. 

Ten years at least or so ago that we had 6 lap Ht15's on TV matches wasnt it?

So not a "new issue" I would suggest...

[Lefty]

At P'boro' my trainers wear out walking from the car park to the grandstand.  I will have to check what make they are? I think they might be Anidas. 

[IainB]

I could clearly smell burning rubber last night at Peterborough and then in the very next race Fricke limped over the line with a puncture. It looked like Nicholls may also have suffered one earlier in the evening the way he left his bike at the pit gate. It seems when the conditions are right (wrong!) at Peterborough they seem to have more problems than most, this must be rectified before next season

[Bald Bloke]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:33 AM, wtf said:

Generally, been running higher pressures on the Anlas since it came in. Most are running between 7-10psi. The new tyres had a different carcass construction. Alot of people think the problem is the compound, it isn't, it's the construction of the carcass that is making the tyre lamination separate and fail. There were a few problems on Monday, but generally the tyres faired much better.

Happy to refute most of what you say. There isn't a minimum tyre pressure that riders have to run, 6psi and lower was common on the old Mitas tyre, shale is no longer sharp edged, were racing mostly on mud these days. For as long as I can remember it's been 1 tyre (2 edges) per meeting. The catastrophic failures are not down to a tyre being punctured by a foreign object due to low pressures. the Tyres are falling apart from the inside out

I said on the Panthers thread back a month or so when we had tyregate. The carcass construction seems to be the problem. Yes the Showground is hard on tyres, but it is possible in 2022 to make a tyre that don't fall to bits. If the carcass was strong enough the tyre wouldn't rip. The tread is just the soft compound, and could be replaced by a harder compound rubber, which would help with wear. But the problem lies in the construction of the carcass. Needs to be reinforced with steel banding to hold it together. I've seen drift car tyres last well over an hour drifting on concrete. If you cut through a speedway tyre, i bet it don't look like this. Yes it will be a bit heavier, but it will be safer. Thats my opinion on the issue.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Bald Bloke

[Bagpuss]

Presumably they have issues at P'boro because it's essentially a big circle and they are constantly on the edge of the tyre?

[Bald Bloke]

17 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

Presumably they have issues at P'boro because it's essentially a big circle and they are constantly on the edge of the tyre?

Thats about it. The tyre wear is due to this, the rubber compound is very soft and thats what causes the tyre/tread to wear more than other tracks, But the carcass of the tyre isn't up to it either. It's not reinforced enough, which is causing the tyre to fall to bits imho

[FromBendThree]

Speedway has  one compound for every track. Why not let riders chooSe from soft, intermediate or hard? Also have a set of full wets. Then you can race when it rains

[Bald Bloke]

3 minutes ago, FromBendThree said:

Speedway has  one compound for every track. Why not let riders chooSe from soft, intermediate or hard? Also have a set of full wets. Then you can race when it rains

That would help with tyre wear. But what is causing the tyres to fall to bits is a carcass issue.

[wtf]

20 hours ago, Bald Bloke said:

I said on the Panthers thread back a month or so when we had tyregate. The carcass construction seems to be the problem. Yes the Showground is hard on tyres, but it is possible in 2022 to make a tyre that don't fall to bits. If the carcass was strong enough the tyre wouldn't rip. The tread is just the soft compound, and could be replaced by a harder compound rubber, which would help with wear. But the problem lies in the construction of the carcass. Needs to be reinforced with steel banding to hold it together. I've seen drift car tyres last well over an hour drifting on concrete. If you cut through a speedway tyre, i bet it don't look like this. Yes it will be a bit heavier, but it will be safer. Thats my opinion on the issue.

The carcass construction looks very similar to your drawing, the steel beads are there along with the other layers. The compound of the rubber is not really an issue like you say it's the construction.

20 hours ago, Bald Bloke said:

Thats about it. The tyre wear is due to this, the rubber compound is very soft and thats what causes the tyre/tread to wear more than other tracks, But the carcass of the tyre isn't up to it either. It's not reinforced enough, which is causing the tyre to fall to bits imho

Lets be clear, the Anlas tyres are NOT wearing out. Tyre wear is NOT the issue. They are falling apart long before they wear out. If anything their wear rate is much better than the Mitas that preceeded it.

20 hours ago, FromBendThree said:

Speedway has  one compound for every track. Why not let riders choose from soft, intermediate or hard? Also have a set of full wets. Then you can race when it rains

Unfortunately that's unlikely. Not racing in the rain is very very rarely about grip levels, it's 90% about being able to see where you are going

20 hours ago, Bald Bloke said:

That would help with tyre wear. But what is causing the tyres to fall to bits is a carcass issue.

I believe it's poor quality construction and poor quality materials. But 100% what you have said is the issue 

[Fromafar]

Bottom line is tyre is not fit for purpose .IMO. Riders throw away money on everything else maybe they should be complaining about sub standard tyres.It’s hard to believe it’s just at Peterborough that they have problems,I seem to recall at Berwick last season they also had “ tyre issues”.

[Call me wolfie]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:08 PM, Bagpuss said:

Presumably they have issues at P'boro because it's essentially a big circle and they are constantly on the edge of the tyre?

Correct, which causes the tyres to overheat then self destruct, made worse by a higher track temperature for an afternoon meeting.

[cowboy cookie returns?]

It's clear the construction of the tyre is to blame as it isn't up to the requirements needed to operate with the current set ups.

However you also have to look beyond the tyres. 

The high reving engines causing more wheel spin puts additional pressure on the tyre construction & more heat though the tyre.

The lack of material on the tracks which means that the tyre is running on pretty much the track base which far harder than running on a well prepared shale track. This in turn produces more heat though the tyre which when coupled to point one further increases operating temperatures.

The shale is removed from the tracks as the high reving engines are impossible to ride on anything other than ultra slick tracks.

The blue groove in reality is caused by the excess heat between tyre & track surface. When you apply excess heat to a surface it generally turns blue. In the engineering world if a set of brake discs or flywheels have a blue surface it's a sign of massive heating.

We constantly read about rider safety being paramount & costs being out of control. 

The question must be is why won't the control board/BSPL do anything about the equipment & why are the riders so dead set against having restrictions that in the end would make the sport safer & at the same time reduce costs?

[wtf]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:01 AM, cowboy cookie returns? said:

It's clear the construction of the tyre is to blame as it isn't up to the requirements needed to operate with the current set ups.

However you also have to look beyond the tyres. 

The high reving engines causing more wheel spin puts additional pressure on the tyre construction & more heat though the tyre.

The lack of material on the tracks which means that the tyre is running on pretty much the track base which far harder than running on a well prepared shale track. This in turn produces more heat though the tyre which when coupled to point one further increases operating temperatures.

The shale is removed from the tracks as the high reving engines are impossible to ride on anything other than ultra slick tracks.

The blue groove in reality is caused by the excess heat between tyre & track surface. When you apply excess heat to a surface it generally turns blue. In the engineering world if a set of brake discs or flywheels have a blue surface it's a sign of massive heating.

We constantly read about rider safety being paramount & costs being out of control. 

The question must be is why won't the control board/BSPL do anything about the equipment & why are the riders so dead set against having restrictions that in the end would make the sport safer & at the same time reduce costs?

But we had all the same conditions 3 years ago with Mitas tyres and they didn't fall apart.

[Hackett]

On 9/17/2022 at 9:52 PM, Call me wolfie said:

Correct, which causes the tyres to overheat then self destruct, made worse by a higher track temperature for an afternoon meeting.

My understanding is they use a harder compound of tyre in Poland. Because with most of the tracks in Poland being throttle merchants you would think they would have a similar problem but I read they have access to a harder compound. 

[The Dog]

What I don't understand is why aren't all riders venting their spleen over these unsafe tyres? If safety is paramount as we keep getting told, why is it only Nicholls that's had the guts to say his piece? Surely the BSPL should be protecting the riders too by either not running meetings until these tyres have been proven or by enforcing the dumbing down of engine performance so the back wheel isn't spinning so viciously. 

Something seriously wrong if a tyre cannot last a minutes racing let alone a whole meeting. 

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

2 hours ago, wtf said:

But we had all the same conditions 3 years ago with Mitas tyres and they didn't fall apart.

Speedway has had this problem for a few years now even with mitas and before that Barum, I can remember tyres down to the skin back in the early 2000 with whole knobbles being ripped off after 2 rides, basso’s tyre looked worse cause he carried on riding with a flat tyre,,it doesn’t matter what tyre manufacturer you use, they will all disintegrate when you do burnouts for 60 seconds which is what is happening 

[steve roberts]

28 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Speedway has had this problem for a few years now even with mitas and before that Barum, I can remember tyres down to the skin back in the early 2000 with whole knobbles being ripped off after 2 rides, basso’s tyre looked worse cause he carried on riding with a flat tyre,,it doesn’t matter what tyre manufacturer you use, they will all disintegrate when you do burnouts for 60 seconds which is what is happening 

Speedway does tend to get its "knickers in a twist". There were issues with tyres back in the eighties/nineties...you'd think it would have learnt lessons?