BV66 Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 The Play-Offs are nothing more than a Mini K O Cup competition, at one time it meant something finishing top of the seasons League, as you had been the most consistent and best team over a full season. Not like now when ringers can be brought in at the last moment, as riders become available from Poland, to strengthen up for the Play-Offs. This year is even worse, as teams know who they are likely to meet, as 1st v 4th and 3rd v 2nd, so it might pay a team to throw a meeting to get a better chance in the semi finals. So no perk whatsoever for being top of the League. Does Orion have a problem with the older generation, as if you disrespect them, and take them off the crowd figures, speedway would be finished. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, BV66 said: The Play-Offs are nothing more than a Mini K O Cup competition, at one time it meant something finishing top of the seasons League, as you had been the most consistent and best team over a full season. Not like now when ringers can be brought in at the last moment, as riders become available from Poland, to strengthen up for the Play-Offs. This year is even worse, as teams know who they are likely to meet, as 1st v 4th and 3rd v 2nd, so it might pay a team to throw a meeting to get a better chance in the semi finals. So no perk whatsoever for being top of the League. Does Orion have a problem with the older generation, as if you disrespect them, and take them off the crowd figures, speedway would be finished. Only when there reason for not liking something is because we never had it in our day. Rather that facts to back up there opinion. What ringers are you on about for the Play offs by the way ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 50 minutes ago, orion said: No matter what format know one knows before how its going to work out .But all the stats show the old system had more dead rubbers than the play off system making your point invalid . Wasn't my point. It was chrismorton's, the thread starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 23 hours ago, moxey63 said: Is it really worth carrying on with this play-off malarkey when the whole point of them is to create a bumper payout for clubs at the end? 1,000 more is nice, but how many of those fans don't attend the seven months leading up to them, in which six teams full of somebody else's rider chase four places? Not appealing. So that's not you whowrote this then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 4 hours ago, steve roberts said: ...not Premier League Football however where the team that finishes top become champions. Not sure if the lower divisions apply the same criteria? You can imagine the outcry if the team that finished top in the Football Premier League weren't crowned champions? Football is absolutely no comparison - even so, the Premier League has positions for Champions League and Europa League, etc. to play for, as well as the race for relegation, and even prize money for final positions, so they have a lot to play for. Speedway’s Prem Champs don’t even get prize money … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, orion said: Only when there reason for not liking something is because we never had it in our day. Rather that facts to back up there opinion. What ringers are you on about for the Play offs by the way ? Must be referring to Tungate at Ipswich? Of course, he replaced the injured (in great form) Riss - and Ipswich also took the opportunity to bring in Summers to replace Barker (suspended, and no sign of his return). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BV66 Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 33 minutes ago, orion said: Only when there reason for not liking something is because we never had it in our day. Rather that facts to back up there opinion. What ringers are you on about for the Play offs by the way ? I should not have used the term "ringers" , I should have just said riders. As far as I know no rule breaking has taken place, just a matter of luck getting a good average on a rider as a replacement. I think the cut off date for signing riders before the Play-Offs was moved, I could be mistaken though. For me being a Belle Vue fan, we have had a disastrous time in the Play-Offs, we must have the worse record of anybody, failing so many times in them. Perhaps this year if we get in them it will be different, but with our team manager's tactical record, I am not in any way confident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, orion said: No matter what format know one knows before how its going to work out .But all the stats show the old system had more dead rubbers than the play off system making your point invalid . It may have had more "dead rubbers" as you correctly say, but it also did have teams visiting for maybe their only visit of the season, which meant some interest from the fans... With an out and out superstar too in some cases, which could bring some of the best crowds of the season.. Now we have play offs with potentially teams making their fourth visit of the season, with riders on show visiting your track who may have guested several times for other teams (as well as your own team)... The pull of the play offs will hopefully always deliver good crowds but it is the matches leading up to them which sadly dont always hold much sway... Edited September 5, 2022 by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 7 hours ago, steve roberts said: You can imagine the outcry if the team that finished top in the Football Premier League weren't crowned champions? Football is now more the exception rather than the rule for not having playoffs to decide its champions, although it does have promotion playoffs and of course had relegation test matches in the early days! Although I prefer that the team with the most points wins the championship, even the points system has been contrived in recent years so nothing is sacrosanct. If race offs (I refuse to call them playoffs in speedway) are considered desirable though, you could give some advantage to the higher placed teams by giving them some sort of points lead and/or home advantage. You could also have a double elimination system which gives the higher placed teams more advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, mikebv said: It may have had more "dead rubbers" as you correctly say, but it also did have teams visiting for maybe their only visit of the season, which meant some interest from the fans... With an out and out superstar too in some cases, which could bring some of the best crowds of the season.. Now we have play offs with potentially teams making their fourth visit of the season, with riders on show visiting your track who may have guested several times for other teams (as well as your own team)... The pull of the play offs will hopefully always deliver good crowds but it is the matches leading up to them which sadly dont always hold much sway... Yet again that's nothing to do with the play offs but the lack of teams.. Not having the play offs won't change that.. plus there are no superstars anymore no matter what format..there are no reasons why crowds would be any better overall without play offs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, orion said: They don't have to in the Pl as there are other things to play for..top 6 going down millions of pounds for each place you finish in.Speedway has none of that . Rugby have plays offs to decide champions and there is no outcry because they all know the rules before hand . Champions are still champions however and that's what the record books show. Football at that level has become too money orientated with the richest getting richer and, dare I suggest, buying success whereas further down the leagues teams are struggling to fight off survival and bankruptcy. Not a healthy situation in anybody's language. Edited September 5, 2022 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Roger Jacobs said: Football is absolutely no comparison - even so, the Premier League has positions for Champions League and Europa League, etc. to play for, as well as the race for relegation, and even prize money for final positions, so they have a lot to play for. Speedway’s Prem Champs don’t even get prize money … I would agree that comparisons aren't a true reflection on the state of either sport but I was referring to the fact that football still "rewards" the team that finishes top as champions irrespective of prize money. but as I have stated in my earlier post those teams further down the listings are fighting for their very survival whilst the richer clubs continual to get richer. As regards Speedway we were sold the story that live league speedway would pull in major sponsors which unfortunately, for whatever reason, never did. Which beggars the question who got the SKY money? Edited September 5, 2022 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 30 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said: Football is now more the exception rather than the rule for not having playoffs to decide its champions, although it does have promotion playoffs and of course had relegation test matches in the early days! Although I prefer that the team with the most points wins the championship, even the points system has been contrived in recent years so nothing is sacrosanct. If race offs (I refuse to call them playoffs in speedway) are considered desirable though, you could give some advantage to the higher placed teams by giving them some sort of points lead and/or home advantage. You could also have a double elimination system which gives the higher placed teams more advantage. ...and you have to ask the question why has football avoided going down that route? Would football fans except that scenario? Of course promotion playoffs have been the norm for many years now but I think I am right in saying that those who finish top in the various leagues (Championship, One & Two) are still crowned champions? Only those immediately below that are involved in playoffs to decide on who gets promoted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, steve roberts said: I'd recommend anyone to read "Cloughie's" autobiogarphy. Although written nearly 20 years ago his views on the modern game and TV in particular make fascinating reading and there is much that is still relevant today especially regarding "big" money/salaries, club owners and over the top commentary analysis amongst many other observations. The business side of football is money laundering at worst and tax off setting at best and gets a play thing thrown in and to a very lesser extent so is speedway although speedway’s is so small it doesn’t create a ripple in the financial world or even in the British tax system, the tax man has stuck his oar in a few times over the years but nothing ever comes of it, I’m yet to see an ex promoter living on the streets after his club folded owing 1000s to every man and his cat Edited September 5, 2022 by THE DEAN MACHINE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 3 hours ago, BV66 said: The Play-Offs are nothing more than a Mini K O Cup competition, at one time it meant something finishing top of the seasons League, as you had been the most consistent and best team over a full season. Not like now when ringers can be brought in at the last moment, as riders become available from Poland, to strengthen up for the Play-Offs. This year is even worse, as teams know who they are likely to meet, as 1st v 4th and 3rd v 2nd, so it might pay a team to throw a meeting to get a better chance in the semi finals. So no perk whatsoever for being top of the League. Does Orion have a problem with the older generation, as if you disrespect them, and take them off the crowd figures, speedway would be finished. ...and we at Oxford had some right "humdingers" in the cup competitions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 30 minutes ago, steve roberts said: ...and you have to ask the question why has football avoided going down that route? Would football fans except that scenario? Of course promotion playoffs have been the norm for many years now but I think I am right in saying that those who finish top in the various leagues (Championship, One & Two) are still crowned champions? Only those immediately below that are involved in playoffs to decide on who gets promoted? Because they have to for reason to that, have been already been explained by 3 other on this topic . If it happened in football just like the other sports it would accepted after a come of seasons . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, orion said: Because they have to for reason to that, have been already been explained by 3 other on this topic . If it happened in football just like the other sports it would accepted after a come of seasons . ...think I've managed to desipher your response but I'm not entirely sure your average Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City & Utd et al fans would neccessarily accept that scenario to be honest but I would be happy to be proved wrong but I guess that will never be answered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Roger Jacobs said: Football is absolutely no comparison - even so, the Premier League has positions for Champions League and Europa League, etc. to play for, as well as the race for relegation, and even prize money for final positions, so they have a lot to play for. Speedway’s Prem Champs don’t even get prize money … But they get the extra dosh from the play off meetings ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, steve roberts said: ...think I've managed to desipher your response but I'm not entirely sure your average Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City & Utd et al fans would neccessarily accept that scenario to be honest but I would be happy to be proved wrong but I guess that will never be answered? There are already play-offs for football's League Championship in some countries. https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/playoffs-around-world-global-leagues-use-variety-different-formats-determine I'm quite surprised at how convoluted some of these are, and if something similar to some of these happened in speedway I'm sure there would be howls of derision and cries of 'only in speedway' ...well apparently not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 1 minute ago, arnieg said: There are already play-offs for football's League Championship in some countries. https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/playoffs-around-world-global-leagues-use-variety-different-formats-determine I'm quite surprised at how convoluted some of these are, and if something similar to some of these happened in speedway I'm sure there would be howls of derision and cries of 'only in speedway' ...well apparently not. I don't actually follow football much now so I bow to your input. Personally I think generally "playoffs" are an advent of American sports whereby your average american requires a sudden death situation and can't comprehend/appreciate a league structured format and all that entails! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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