Humphrey Appleby Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 7 hours ago, cowboy cookie returns? said: If you go all the way back 32 years to 1990 the sport has spent the whole timing trying to prop up & keep some form of British/Elite league now premiership going. The NL at the end of 1990 was broken up partly to keep a 9 team BL going that was rife with missing riders & the use of guests that was seeing dwindling crowd numbers. The NL on the other hand was a well run league that was seeing god gates & in the case of my local club Ipswich increased attendance dispute dropping down a league at the end of 88. I'd argue that the NL was ultimately a disaster for speedway, and as I recall suffered from just as much instability as the BL. Yes, it allowed maybe couple of the teams that dropped down to survive and even prosper (Ipswich and Sheffield), but others also fell by the wayside as the NL filled with professional riders. The NL refusal to allow its riders to be used by the BL also limited progression and forced BL teams into using even more guests. In any two-tier system, the bottom tier has to support rather than compete against the top tier, as it's the existence of the top tier that ultimately keeps costs down for the lower tier. I think few would disagree that the merger of BL and NL, and the creation a couple years later of the 'one big league' wasn't well done, but had the BL collapsed than it would have just have transferred its problems to the NL. I think speedway crowds were generally dwindling throughout the Eighties, although some BL teams still got (by today's standards) quite healthy crowds just as some NL teams struggled. We're now back to the situation though, where the powers-that-be have totally got the split between the PL and CL wrong in terms of costings. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 4 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said: That's the problem - only one home meeting in every four, and effectively a third of the revenue compared to now. 4TTs fixtures are also difficult to organise in a balanced way unless there's 4, 5, 7, 8 or 16 teams in the league. Even then, you'll probably find that some teams will have less home meetings than others. What about three-team events? Forget about the "third of the revenue". You mean a "third of the expense"more like! Okay, it may not be 100% balanced fixture-wise (and it could be arranged according to results/team strength), but it would have to be better than what we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 It is interesting reading the many wide and varied ideas as to how the UK can put a team system together that offers up a credible offering.. Rider numbers in teams, team strengths, team numbers in leagues, how many teams per meeting, who should be eligible to ride over here, races per meeting, and probably more ideas on top of those.. Some you look at and thing "maybe could work", some you look at and think "no chance".. Bottom line is "no chance" is the view that will be taken by those who run the sport for any of the ideas mentioned.. The majority of whom are quite happy with the current model as it is "easy" to run, (and if on occasion it isnt "easy" then just make something up in the "interests of the sport").. And the riders will be quite happy too as each meeting gets arranged around their own personal circumstances and they get to ride as many times as they want for any of the teams, as long as their average allows over here, whilst in many cases earning money elsewhere in Europe and also being able to pursue their own individual ambitions.. For the promoters and riders it is a perfect system.. So why would they change it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, mikebv said: the riders will be quite happy too as each meeting gets arranged around their own personal circumstances and they get to ride as many times as they want for any of the teams, as long as their average allows over here, whilst in many cases earning money elsewhere in Europe and also being able to pursue their own individual ambitions.. Historically this has always been the problem dealing with riders is like herding cats ,when we were involved with rider's contracts it was a nightmare they would change there demands and terms at the drop of a hat .The Polish league seem to have them under a certain amount of control but in the UK it's a free for all made worse by the lack of quality riders ,it is not all down to bad promoters the riders should take their share of the blame as well . Edited September 1, 2022 by FAST GATER 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtf Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, FAST GATER said: Historically this has always been the problem dealing with riders is like herding cats ,when we were involved with rider's contracts it was a nightmare they would change there demands and terms at the drop of a hat .The Polish league seem to have them under a certain amount of control but in the UK it's a free for all made worse by the lack of quality riders ,it is not all down to bad promoters the riders should take their share of the blame as well . That's simply supply and demand. An 'in demand' has always been able to do that as long as someone is willing to pay it. I go back 10 years to when the 2nd division introduced a voluntary pay cap at £55 a point. It took less than 2 hrs before some promotors had torn it up and offered more. If you look at Poland in the last 12 months, they have made significant changes to get pay rates approved and public, with them trying to rid the sport of it's under the counter cash payments. Promotors moan like F### about riders demanding this that and the other and in the same breath, they go and pay it. If someone offered you more money for your job, would you consider it? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 28 minutes ago, wtf said: That's simply supply and demand. An 'in demand' has always been able to do that as long as someone is willing to pay it. I go back 10 years to when the 2nd division introduced a voluntary pay cap at £55 a point. It took less than 2 hrs before some promotors had torn it up and offered more. If you look at Poland in the last 12 months, they have made significant changes to get pay rates approved and public, with them trying to rid the sport of it's under the counter cash payments. Promotors moan like F### about riders demanding this that and the other and in the same breath, they go and pay it. If someone offered you more money for your job, would you consider it? Once more... It all goes back, like so much does, to no independent regulatory body or person standing over the sport, with real consequence for contravention of the rules and regulations not being followed... Nothing will change as it is just too easy to keep the same system, and carry on meandering along fire fighting (quite literally at one track!) as each new self inflicted issue surfaces... In short. A free for all for riders and promoters works well for both.. Does absolutely nothing for the sport in terms of credibility and integrity, which ultimately means no major sponsor or media coverage, but all the stakeholders seem happy with what they have got, and those who attend each week endorse what is provided by their continued attendance... Therefore.. Everybody Wins.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 10 hours ago, uk_martin said: On the flip-side, it will also serve to confirm the role of the British leagues as a nursery for new riders and a retirement home for those past their best, because anyone keen on earning better money will ply their trade abroad, like some do already. I got the impression that a good quarter, if not a third of the riders in my original list are Australian. Getting a flight from Sydney to Warsaw is no harder than getting a flight from Sydney to London, so I suspect that it won't be long before some if not all the Aussies may be doing their thing in Polski żużel. A lot of the Aussie youngsters are already doing that.Better money is available in Poland but Competition is fierce and not everyone is good enough to pick and choose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 5 hours ago, chunky said: What about three-team events? Forget about the "third of the revenue". You mean a "third of the expense"more like! Okay, it may not be 100% balanced fixture-wise (and it could be arranged according to results/team strength), but it would have to be better than what we have now. 3TTs are awkward as (assuming four riders per race) there will always be one team not riding in any given heat, and difficult to come-up with a balanced format where every rider meets at least once. The 'classic' 18-heat 3TT format used in Britain is pretty awful as team members are stuck in the same pairs and don't meet a pair of riders from each of the other teams. And as you point out, also difficult to arrange fixtures unless there are 3, 6, 7 or 9 teams in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, wtf said: That's simply supply and demand. An 'in demand' has always been able to do that as long as someone is willing to pay it. I go back 10 years to when the 2nd division introduced a voluntary pay cap at £55 a point. It took less than 2 hrs before some promotors had torn it up and offered more. If you look at Poland in the last 12 months, they have made significant changes to get pay rates approved and public, with them trying to rid the sport of it's under the counter cash payments. The only way that a salary cap could ever work is if the BSPL centrally contracts and hires out the riders to teams. Other (mainstream) sports can afford expensive auditors to go and check conformance, but speedway hasn't got the money for them and no doubt much of the sport still runs on cash-in-hand anyway. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 35 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said: The 'classic' 18-heat 3TT format used in Britain is pretty awful as team members are stuck in the same pairs and don't meet a pair of riders from each of the other teams. It doesn't have to be that way though; there are options... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, chunky said: It doesn't have to be that way though; there are options... Not many. 4-rider teams will give you 12 heats where everyone meets each other once with the same pairings. You could then mix-up the pairs, but that would require at least another 6 heats (for a total of 18) and there wouldn't be a balanced format. Alternatively, you could add a couple of reserve pairings to each team, which would add another 3 heats (for a total of 15), but they'd only have 2 rides each and you'll have 3 all reserve races which is not ideal. Or you could mix-up the pairings with the reserves (so there are now 3 pairings per team), but then you'll need to add 9 heats (for a total of 21) which would give Nos 1-4, 6 programmed rides and Nos 5 & 6 only 2 programmed rides. It's awkward which is why I think only the Danish Open League has ever used a 3TT format, and that was only for a season as I recall. That used 6-rider teams with 2 reserves (who had 2 rides each) over an 18-heat format. The last 3 heats were some sort of nominated races based on team ranking order after Heat 15, so the nominated riders from the top two scoring teams rode in the final heat. I'm not sure how you'd explain all this to a television audience... Edited September 1, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 9 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said: Not many. 4-rider teams will give you 12 heats where everyone meets each other once with the same pairings. You could then mix-up the pairs, but that would require at least another 6 heats (for a total of 18) and there wouldn't be a balanced format. Alternatively, you could add a couple of reserve pairings to each team, which would add another 3 heats (for a total of 15), but they'd only have 2 rides each and you'll have 3 all reserve races which is not ideal. Or you could mix-up the pairings with the reserves (so there are now 3 pairings per team), but then you'll need to add 9 heats (for a total of 21) which would give Nos 1-4, 6 programmed rides and Nos 5 & 6 only 2 programmed rides. It's awkward which is why I think only the Danish Open League has ever used a 3TT format, and that was only for a season as I recall. That used 6-rider teams with 2 reserves (who had 2 rides each) over an 18-heat format. The last 3 heats were some sort of nominated races based on team ranking order after Heat 15, so the nominated riders from the top two scoring teams rode in the final heat. I'm not sure how you'd explain all this to a television audience... For me... Six man teams... 9 heats where all pairs race against each other.. Heats 10/11/12 is lowest to highest point scorers at that stage.. Then 13/14 two nominated heats.. 14 heats with 8 riders having 5 rides and 4 having four... 2 x HL's, 2 x SS's and 2 x "Juniors" similar to how Poland do it.. Top league have the best ranked "juniors".. 2nd league have the next level "up and coming juniors".. Two leagues based on attendances, not "it is better for us to ride in this one".. Doubling up probably needed until development delivers enough riders (maybe one Div 1 HL per 2nd Div team?) but also clubs get to ride on their best night to get a crowd, and only ride on an off night when on TV.... Eg Poole should ride in Div 1 now but on a Wednesday... Seems barmy that riders can dictate that a team that would enhance the product overall have to drop a Div to ensure these riders can earn money in Denmark... 14 heats saves points money too so pass a 1/15th saving to the fans via admission, (over a quid at all Div 1 and 2 tracks)... And deliver a better RR process to reduce/eradicate guests, (it isnt too difficult to come up with one), so hopefully engage the many thousands who no longer attend regularly but closely follow the sport.. Or possibly just carry on as normal... . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk127 Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 Unfortunately despite all the good ideas and suggestions put forward on this topic, no one in authority is listening nor will those in charge take a inward look at what they are dong to the sport. None so blind as those who do not want to see comes to mind. Riders want to earn an annual salary in a six months season while the rest of the population has to work twelve months. (If they have winter jobs are the pay rates demanded by the riders over ambitious) They have expensive equipment that is not robust enough to cater with the work that it is required of it hence the regular expensive overhaul after a few races that adds to the cost. Most of the tracks in operation today were not built for today’s machines and on the subject of tracks, the entry point in terms of costs for new tracks, in order to cater for the bikes and safety aspect etc., is now so high and even if you could find the land who in their right mind would invest in a project where the business model is dictated by third parties who have put nothing into the new track and will basically tell you when you can open and run meetings unless you operate outside the current set up and follow the IOW. The sport is not a joke, it is some of the parties involved from riders to track owners and as has been said before, as long as the punters turn up no one is going to take on board the possibility that trying something new might just be better option rather then sticking with the current format with dwindling support on the terraces. Today people are rarely prepared to wait yet it can take two plus hours to run 15 minutes of racing. Younger people lose the will to live whilst waiting for the next heat to be run and if they do get hooked, how often is the team made up of guests and Mr R/R. Nothing will change just fewer and fewer people bothering to go to a track and the way the cost of living is going speedway however good it can be will be way down the list of spending and many will consider that it is not value for money if attending a live meeting. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismorton Posted September 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 Add to all this..the line up Peterborough are putting out for a local derby at Lynn tonight...discusting treatment to the fans..do they expect us to travel and pay to watch that crap?...Buster Chapman is like a kid who's got bored of his new toy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Hawk127 said: Younger people lose the will to live whilst waiting for the next heat to be run That doesn't appear to be true in Poland...but then in Poland the crowds are younger and more partisan, whereas here, they are much older and "don't make a noise by me"..."don't fly your flag by me"..."don't blow your horn by me"..."a nice cup of tea, anyone..." Younger people lose the will to live when surrounded by a crowd old enough to be their grandparents. Hands up any young person who goes down to their local Derby & Joan Club for their Friday night out, on the pull? So how about another radical suggestion? Youth Zones on the terracing, where young people can do young people things without someone's granny tutting at them all the time? For all the other changes to tracks, equipment, organisation etc, unless the attraction of the next generation of fans is addressed, the sport will die out, LITTERALLY, as the fans die out. And at some clubs, that's not far away. Edited September 1, 2022 by uk_martin 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted September 1, 2022 Report Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) On 8/31/2022 at 10:24 AM, mikebv said: Spot on... And remember, even in the "halcyon days" when the tracks were often rammed with spectators, most tracks only had two or three fully professional riders... And that was only in the top league... One or two "superstars" and another "potential superstar/wunderkind" was what only the very top clubs mainly had... The rest of the riders making up the teams had "day jobs" and were very pleased to earn quite a bit more than a weeks pay from that job in just one night riding Speedway... Ride 20 times a month and you could have half a years salary every 30 days or so.. Do that from March to October and then work through the winter, or go on tour to Austalia if you were a full time pro, and a very, very good living could be had... Now we have "professionals" barely out of school, who cannot even hold down a place in the Championship, needing paying to fund their dreams... What a ridiculous system to have designed... You're talking a lot of sense there! For some reason when riders say they need x-amount of money to buy the best equipment, promoters just pay it (despite it not improving the product). Rather than saying "as only so many fans turn up to matches I can only pay you this amount" I've never understood why promoters pay out more than what comes in? If that means Championship riders have to treat it as a hobby, while working a "real" job like they did in the 80's so be it! Edited September 1, 2022 by szkocjasid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted September 2, 2022 Report Share Posted September 2, 2022 14 hours ago, chrismorton said: Add to all this..the line up Peterborough are putting out for a local derby at Lynn tonight...discusting treatment to the fans..do they expect us to travel and pay to watch that crap?...Buster Chapman is like a kid who's got bored of his new toy. Eat ya words m8, the Peterborough boys were on it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted September 2, 2022 Report Share Posted September 2, 2022 10 hours ago, uk_martin said: That doesn't appear to be true in Poland...but then in Poland the crowds are younger and more partisan, whereas here, they are much older and "don't make a noise by me"..."don't fly your flag by me"..."don't blow your horn by me"..."a nice cup of tea, anyone..." Younger people lose the will to live when surrounded by a crowd old enough to be their grandparents. Hands up any young person who goes down to their local Derby & Joan Club for their Friday night out, on the pull? So how about another radical suggestion? Youth Zones on the terracing, where young people can do young people things without someone's granny tutting at them all the time? For all the other changes to tracks, equipment, organisation etc, unless the attraction of the next generation of fans is addressed, the sport will die out, LITTERALLY, as the fans die out. And at some clubs, that's not far away. You're right about older and long term fans, just look at the bloody moaning on here LOL Polish fans just love their teams and are proud of the riders who race for them, a TOTALLY different mind set to us! Polish fans need nothing more than to roll up, fly their flags and banners, chant their riders' names and cheer their teams from start to finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismorton Posted September 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Trees said: Eat ya words m8, the Peterborough boys were on it! Hardly mate...we still lost and it makes it worse for me because if Panthers management had made an effort rather than stick 2 ringers in then we would have won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted September 2, 2022 Report Share Posted September 2, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, chrismorton said: Add to all this..the line up Peterborough are putting out for a local derby at Lynn tonight...discusting treatment to the fans..do they expect us to travel and pay to watch that crap?...Buster Chapman is like a kid who's got bored of his new toy. Who would you have booked as a guest for two riders with comparatively low Green Sheet averages? Apparently Carl Johnson was on the phone to any number of riders just to find someone who was available and prepared to ride. Not sure what Chapman has to do with it? Not a bad score by the three remaining Panthers, when many were predicting KL could hit 60. Edited September 2, 2022 by Roger Jacobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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