Humphrey Appleby Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 3 hours ago, iainb said: Just because it's been 7 man teams for as long as I can remember doesn't mean it always has to be that way. You alter the model to suit the circumstances, if there aren't enough riders to run a credible league you go to 6 or even 5 man teams... it ain't rocket science If you reduce the size of the teams to fit the supposed number of riders, then you reduce opportunities which in turn means more potential riders simply won't bother with the sport. It simply becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and the rider pool will just continue to shrink. 6-rider teams are just about viable for a league match with 14-15 heats. 5-rider teams would require riders to not only have too many programmed rides, but too closely spaced together as well. Almost certain that some riders would also have to have two programmed rides on the trot, which does nothing for timekeeping. Teams have been 7 riders for much of the sport's history (although there have been 8 and 6-rider teams at times) because it's an optimal number for various reasons, including the possibility to run rider replacement. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismorton Posted August 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Roger Jacobs said: The British Final decision was not ridiculous, it was correct - they actually followed the relevant SCB Regulation. The decision made in that final was shocking..Ellis should never have rode at Cardiff this season that was last year's news..and how did that work out for him?..this is only a small slice of the pie that contributes to my original point.. British speedway has become one of the most tinpot sports in the country. Edited August 31, 2022 by chrismorton 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 24 minutes ago, chrismorton said: The decision made in that final was shocking..Ellis should never have rode at Cardiff this season that was last year's news..and how did that work out for him?..this is only a small slice of the pie that contributes to my original point.. British speedway has become one of the most tinpot sports in the country. The Regulations state clearly that if the British Final is abandoned and a restating is planned, then no result is declared. The BSPA had to nominate a Wild Card for the British GP. Their policy is to nominate the British Champion, who is Adam Ellis. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragdoll64 Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, old bob at herne bay said: Seems like the sport has entered a new era…. Exploding tyres (P boro), setting light to the tracks (Glasgow) added the the reasons I stopped going endless delays and teams of gusts and r/r , my only surprise is that there are people still paying £20 each plus travel to watch the smouldering embers of a once great sport. Nothing I read would tempt me back to watch. Maybe you’re not reading things correctly……there was no setting light to the track at Glasgow……. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, old bob at herne bay said: Seems like the sport has entered a new era…. Exploding tyres (P boro), setting light to the tracks (Glasgow) added the the reasons I stopped going endless delays and teams of gusts and r/r , my only surprise is that there are people still paying £20 each plus travel to watch the smouldering embers of a once great sport. Nothing I read would tempt me back to watch. I think there's only one Francis Gusts, rather than a whole team of them Injuries happen, and guests are a necessary way around the problem - it's been like that throughout the modern era of British speedway, i.e. 1965 onwards. Edited August 31, 2022 by Roger Jacobs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Roger Jacobs said: I think there's only one Francis Gusts, rather than a whole team of them Injuries happen, and guests are a necessary way around the problem - it's been like that throughout the modern era of British speedway, i.e. 1965 onwards. When top riders rode in teams and often scored 30% to 40% of a teams score, and more sometimes, with many running 10 point plus averages, with few bonus points included, and often took five rides a match away from home as a Tac Sub, you could maybe make an argument they needed replacing with a rider of similar talent... Especially in the days of 13 Heats and 40 points won you a match, one world class rider could contribute you 15 so was vital to the team.. Nowadays with much less of a difference in the top fives you could easily deliver a fit for purpose RR faciltly to reduce guests numbers.. If you wanted to obviously... Edited August 31, 2022 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrickn Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 2 hours ago, ragdoll64 said: Maybe you’re not reading things correctly……there was no setting light to the track at Glasgow……. Think it was Plymouth where they set fire to the straw while trying to dry the track. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy cookie returns? Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 47 minutes ago, mikebv said: When top riders rode in teams and often scored 30% to 40% of a teams score, and more sometimes, with many running 10 point plus averages, with few bonus points included, and often took five rides a match away from home as a Tac Sub, you could maybe make an argument they needed replacing with a rider of similar talent... Especially in the days of 13 Heats and 40 points won you a match, one world class rider could contribute you 15 so was vital to the team.. Nowadays with much less of a difference in the top fives you could easily deliver a fit for purpose RR faciltly to reduce guests numbers.. If you wanted to obviously... A fit for purpose rider replacement facility would massively improve the situation. As I've said many times before the old national league had a pretty much zero guest policy in the late 80s injuries had to be covered using rider replacement or promotion of a member of the clubs junior side into the senior team. If using rider replacement a number 8 had to be named. If the will is there it's something that could easily be done however I doubt it is. If you go all the way back 32 years to 1990 the sport has spent the whole timing trying to prop up & keep some form of British/Elite league now premiership going. The NL at the end of 1990 was broken up partly to keep a 9 team BL going that was rife with missing riders & the use of guests that was seeing dwindling crowd numbers. The NL on the other hand was a well run league that was seeing god gates & in the case of my local club Ipswich increased attendance dispute dropping down a league at the end of 88. To try & get the sport going over here again have one league let's call it the British League of no more that 16 clubs made up of the current championship & premiership clubs. The remaining clubs hopefully including the Isle of Wight form the second tier the National league. As much as I did like guests & doubling up they would need to stay short term. But with restrictions doubling up would only be permitted for the riders in the reserve positions of the British League clubs as named at the start of the season. Each British League club would need to name a squad of 10 riders at the start of the season using riders from the National league to cover for missing riders & injuries. Guests would only be permitted in the British League if your number 1 was missing any other missing riders would be covered with rider replacement or using your squad. The National league clubs would be able to use the riders who start the season at reserve with a British League club. These rules would be in place for 3 years before they could be reviewed & the British League would be limited to a maximum of 16 clubs for the duration of the 3 years. The cost of participation in the sport would be addressed immediately with the induction of rev limiters in year one before moving to standard upright equipment from year 2. This would hopefully allow for a better spectacle for the spectators reduced costs for the riders & clubs while making it safer by running equipment that is suitable for the majority of UK circuits. After year three the expansion of the British League would be permitted if there were tracks wanting to join & only if there were the right number of available riders of the correct standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 good ideas. If costs are not controlled in ANY business its soon curtains. I have a feeling however that the one league thing won't be allowed, people seem to want an 'elite' league, even though its anything but that, myself I think one league the way forward. Heat leaders who currently double up would have more meetings and more chance of high scoring in them thus making up for lost earnings doubling up/ down. Allied to lower machinery costs it should be win win. Who has the will/ energy to make that happen though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, cowboy cookie returns? said: A fit for purpose rider replacement facility would massively improve the situation. As I've said many times before the old national league had a pretty much zero guest policy in the late 80s injuries had to be covered using rider replacement or promotion of a member of the clubs junior side into the senior team. If using rider replacement a number 8 had to be named. If the will is there it's something that could easily be done however I doubt it is. If you go all the way back 32 years to 1990 the sport has spent the whole timing trying to prop up & keep some form of British/Elite league now premiership going. The NL at the end of 1990 was broken up partly to keep a 9 team BL going that was rife with missing riders & the use of guests that was seeing dwindling crowd numbers. The NL on the other hand was a well run league that was seeing god gates & in the case of my local club Ipswich increased attendance dispute dropping down a league at the end of 88. To try & get the sport going over here again have one league let's call it the British League of no more that 16 clubs made up of the current championship & premiership clubs. The remaining clubs hopefully including the Isle of Wight form the second tier the National league. As much as I did like guests & doubling up they would need to stay short term. But with restrictions doubling up would only be permitted for the riders in the reserve positions of the British League clubs as named at the start of the season. Each British League club would need to name a squad of 10 riders at the start of the season using riders from the National league to cover for missing riders & injuries. Guests would only be permitted in the British League if your number 1 was missing any other missing riders would be covered with rider replacement or using your squad. The National league clubs would be able to use the riders who start the season at reserve with a British League club. These rules would be in place for 3 years before they could be reviewed & the British League would be limited to a maximum of 16 clubs for the duration of the 3 years. The cost of participation in the sport would be addressed immediately with the induction of rev limiters in year one before moving to standard upright equipment from year 2. This would hopefully allow for a better spectacle for the spectators reduced costs for the riders & clubs while making it safer by running equipment that is suitable for the majority of UK circuits. After year three the expansion of the British League would be permitted if there were tracks wanting to join & only if there were the right number of available riders of the correct standard. With a No1 missing, just let the other 2 HL's take all his rides up to a max of seven per rider.. That way they can take 2 each of his rides, take their four, and still do Ht 15.. The manager may choose to not do that and instead let any rider in form do the same... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 6 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said: If you reduce the size of the teams to fit the supposed number of riders, then you reduce opportunities which in turn means more potential riders simply won't bother with the sport. It simply becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and the rider pool will just continue to shrink. 6-rider teams are just about viable for a league match with 14-15 heats. 5-rider teams would require riders to not only have too many programmed rides, but too closely spaced together as well. Almost certain that some riders would also have to have two programmed rides on the trot, which does nothing for timekeeping. Teams have been 7 riders for much of the sport's history (although there have been 8 and 6-rider teams at times) because it's an optimal number for various reasons, including the possibility to run rider replacement. Didn't Sweden run 6 man teams (with no guesting) during Covid because they had to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 19 hours ago, uk_martin said: So just going through the averages, and "weeding out" those riders who are European and who would struggle to pledge unconditional allegiance to the British leagues, and those British and Australian riders with foreign league commitments, and allocating the double-downers to the most senior club that they ride for, we would be left with: BELLE VUE - Charles Wright, Jake Allen, Jye Ethridge & Connor Bailey = 4 IPSWICH - Danny King, Aaron Summers, Danyon Hume, Ben Barker (!) & Cameron Heeps = 5 KINGS LYNN - Josh Pickering, Richard Lawson, Richie Worrall, Jason Edwards, Jake Mulford, Lewis Kerr, Jack Thomas = 7 PETERBGOROUGH - Chris Harris, Scott Nicholls, Jordan Palin = 3 SHEFFIELD - Kyle Howarth, Connor Mountain, Lewis Kerr, Dan Thompson, Craig Cook, Stefan Nielsen, Justin Sedgmen = 7 WOLVERHAMPTON - Ryan Douglas, Luke Becker, Steve Worrall, Drew Kemp, Leon Flint, Joe Thompson = 6 BERWICK 1 - Ricky Wells, Nathan Stoneman, Ty Proctor, Kyle Bickley = 4 BIRMINGHAM - Josh Auty (!), Ashley Morris, James Shanes, = 3 EDINBURGH - Jacob Hook, James Sarjeant = 2 GLASGOW - Broc Nicholl = 1 LEICESTER - Max Clegg = 1 OXFORD - Dillon Ruml, Josh MacDonald, Paul Starke, Kyle Newman = 4 POOLE - Ben Cook, Nathan Ablitt = 2 PLYMOUTH - Eddie Kennett (!) Connor Coles, Ben Morley, Lee Complin, Daniel Gilkes, Alfie Bowtell, Harry McGurk, Henry Atkins = 8 REDCAR - Jason Edwards, Adam Roynon = 2 SCUNTHORPE - Simon Lambert, James Wright, Zaine Kennedy, Ryan Kinsley = 4 ARMADALE - Tom Woolley, Danny Phillips, Elliott Kelly, Josh Embleton, Gregor Millar, Kyran Lyden, Willian Lawson, George Rothery, Lewis Millar = 9 BELLE VUE 2 - Sam McGurk, Archie Freeman, Freddy Hodder, Jack Parkinson-Blackburn (!) = 4 BERWICK 2 - Greg Blair, Luke Crang, Ace Pijper, Mason Watson, Ben Rathbone, Kieran Douglas = 6 KENT - Danno Verge, Connor King, Jamie Halder, Sam Wooley, Chris Watts, Joe Alcock = 6 LEICESTER 2 - Max Perry, Tom Spencer, Mickie Simpson, Vinnie Foord, Kai Ward = 5 MILDENHALL - Jack Kingston, Alex Spooner, Sam Bebee, Josh Warren, Luke Muff, Matt Marson = 6 OXFORD 2 - Jody Scott, Sam Hagon, Arran Butcher, Jacob Clouting, Luke Killeen, Ben Hopwood, Sam Woods = 7 PLYMOUTH 2 - Ben Trigger, Adam Extance, David Abraham, Rhys Naylor, Ben Phillips, Eli Meadows = 6 So that's a total of 112 riders who you can count on, from 24 teams located at 18 tracks. And I'm being very sympathetic in that definition as I'm including Eddie Kennett, Josh Auty, Ben Barker and Jack Parkinson-Blackburn in there, even though these riders are hardly the kind that you can actually "count on". Other riders like Lee Complin, Adam Roynon, Aaron Summers and James Wright are also in the mix, despite only being on the verge of (re-)retirement. Anyway, optimistically divide 112 by 7 and you have just enough for 16 teams. Go radical and choose 6-man teams, and you'll have enough for just over 18 teams. Not enough to go around, is it? And woe betide the 8 riders who I mentioned don't come to the tapes next year. That'll be one less team that can be fielded. So, if you had your way, which teams would you instruct to shut down? Would you tell the clubs that they can only have one team going forward, so that those clubs with 2 teams will have to get rid of their CL team? It’s only an opinion on the sport and the way it is going.Obviously it would be 1 Team per Club if it went 1 league as my suggestion. we have the ridiculous situation at Berwick where Championship fixtures are finished but the NDL fixtures for deciding top 4 won’t be resolves till after 23 Sept..Virtually the whole month of Sept without a home meeting.How is that the way to promote the sport.Fans don’t know whether their “ coming or going these days”. Something needs to change much stricter control on fixtures.Riders are dictating the sport. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 11 hours ago, cowboy cookie returns? said: If the sport is going to survive in the country other than at a fully amateur level at a hand full of tracks then something dramatic has got to happen. The equipment has got to change the rule book & the regulations have got to be torn up & started again. The tracks have got to be improved to help produce better racing. So, your idea is that British Speedway has to divorce itself from the sport recognised by the FIM, and do its own thing? The motorsport equivalent of Brexit And how's the other Brexit working out so far? Can anyone really see the Swedish league, the Polish leagues, the Czechs, the Russians etc etc all agreeing to change what works for them, just because Britain is struggling? The genie is out of the bottle now, there is no going back to 2-valve upright engines, with or without rev limiters, or whatever the equipment changes are that are being proposed, no matter how romantically you desire it. By all means do all the domestic changes that you want...bin the leagues and start again if you must, revamp the organisational structures, but unless you want to create a completely new category of motorsport that is divorced from what the FIM recognises as speedway, then you have to work within the FIM criteria for what a bike is, what fuel it uses, what tyres are or aren't legal to use, how tracks are constructed etc etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said: 5-rider teams would require riders to not only have too many programmed rides, but too closely spaced together as well. Almost certain that some riders would also have to have two programmed rides on the trot, which does nothing for timekeeping. If you wanted to be ultra-radical, you can bin the one against the other type of match and have a series of 4TT's. 4 riders plus a reserve, using an existing race formula that gives 20 races per meeting, therefore extra value for the fans. All 4 teams host a home leg of that combination of teams. Then you have 4 more matches against 3 other teams, and then 3 other teams and so on. Eventually everyone will ride against everyone, and the best teams are decided. Depending on how many fixtures are created, you can put the names into a hat and have a second and possibly a third round of 4TT's again, and possibly opt for a post-season, to create even more fixtures to give the fans something to enjoy. Edited August 31, 2022 by uk_martin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 37 minutes ago, uk_martin said: If you wanted to be ultra-radical, you can bin the one against the other type of match and have a series of 4TT's. 4 riders plus a reserve, using an existing race formula that gives 20 races per meeting, therefore extra value for the fans. All 4 teams host a home leg of that combination of teams. Then you have 4 more matches against 3 other teams, and then 3 other teams and so on. Eventually everyone will ride against everyone, and the best teams are decided. Depending on how many fixtures are created, you can put the names into a hat and have a second and possibly a third round of 4TT's again, and possibly opt for a post-season, to create even more fixtures to give the fans something to enjoy. 4TT's were always the best to watch given the level of rider.. Unfortunately running a 20 heat 4TT could mean 120 points worth of points money to be paid out, rather than the 90 currently.. And say a team averages 40 points over four legs that would be 160 points worth of money to find from your one home leg... The traditional 16 heat formula would mean 96 points worth of money but again a 30 point average would deliver 120 points worth of money to find over four legs .. When some struggle to pay circa 90 now it would be a big ask... Personally I think it could have been done a decade or so ago, as fans still travelled to away matches, and having three sets of away fans may have mad it viable.. Not sure it would be affordable now, given hardly anyone has an away following of note... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 48 minutes ago, mikebv said: 120 points worth of points money to be paid out, rather than the 90 currently Who says that pay scales have to remain the same? If the alternative is a completely amateur league, then a new pay scale @ 66% of the current rates will get over that problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 9 minutes ago, uk_martin said: Who says that pay scales have to remain the same? If the alternative is a completely amateur league, then a new pay scale @ 66% of the current rates will get over that problem. And ... the riders will have to accept that they can longer keep up this incessant desire for acceleration which makes the bikes more expensive, more unpredictable and more likely to result in high speed crunches and injuries ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 51 minutes ago, Roger Jacobs said: And ... the riders will have to accept that they can longer keep up this incessant desire for acceleration which makes the bikes more expensive, more unpredictable and more likely to result in high speed crunches and injuries ... On the flip-side, it will also serve to confirm the role of the British leagues as a nursery for new riders and a retirement home for those past their best, because anyone keen on earning better money will ply their trade abroad, like some do already. I got the impression that a good quarter, if not a third of the riders in my original list are Australian. Getting a flight from Sydney to Warsaw is no harder than getting a flight from Sydney to London, so I suspect that it won't be long before some if not all the Aussies may be doing their thing in Polski żużel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, mikebv said: 4TT's were always the best to watch given the level of rider.. Unfortunately running a 20 heat 4TT could mean 120 points worth of points money to be paid out, rather than the 90 currently.. And say a team averages 40 points over four legs that would be 160 points worth of money to find from your one home leg... The traditional 16 heat formula would mean 96 points worth of money but again a 30 point average would deliver 120 points worth of money to find over four legs .. When some struggle to pay circa 90 now it would be a big ask... Personally I think it could have been done a decade or so ago, as fans still travelled to away matches, and having three sets of away fans may have mad it viable.. Not sure it would be affordable now, given hardly anyone has an away following of note... That's the problem - only one home meeting in every four, and effectively a third of the revenue compared to now. 4TTs fixtures are also difficult to organise in a balanced way unless there's 4, 5, 7, 8 or 16 teams in the league. Even then, you'll probably find that some teams will have less home meetings than others. Edited August 31, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted August 31, 2022 Report Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, iainb said: Didn't Sweden run 6 man teams (with no guesting) during Covid because they had to? 6-rider teams are really the minimum viable number for a 15-heat match, although they have been run in the past. Edited August 31, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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