Poole 1983.

[waiheke1]

21 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I certainly agree with you Falcace on the Siggy assumption he was a class act and would of been a threat to the Danes.Also don’t forget Billy the kid he was approaching his peak before his passing and had really pushed on in his career.Back to Lee yes of course most of his problems were of his own doing but was also pushed along the way with the help of a few vindictive people within the speedway circle.If times had of been different we COULD of had a period of a fit/ Stable Carter, a motiavated Lee, Siggy, Billy, Erik, Hans all pushing for glory it was not to be.1983 was a very good season for me enjoyed it very much even though the Swindon Robins had a dreadful team shocking really.

Add Penhall to that list. And K Moran and Muller if they had taken the sport a little more seriously...

[waiheke1]

On 7/31/2022 at 5:03 AM, falcace said:

Hmmm...ok. Either you form an opinion based on credible evidence and facts or you don't.

Waiheke1 had already mentioned Andy Smith beating Lee in 83. And I'm sure there are other examples of lesser riders beating Nielsen that year. But the bigger picture and the facts show Hans Nielsen consistently scored more points than any other rider that year and finished it as the BL no1, Intercontinental Champion, Nordic Champion, WTC winner, World Pairs bronze. Mike Lee had a very good year. But he won nowt. 

Worth a look at a title deciding big race between the two in 83....if there is any "blowing away" to be done, Nielsen is not the one on the receiving end....

 

For what it's worth, I think the bigger loss to the sport post 83 was Dennis Sigalos....a real class act. With a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen, he was nearing his peak. And unlike Lee, his loss to the sport wasn't self inflicted.  I think he had the skill, talent, professionalism to be in there with Nielsen and Gundersen fighting for the big prizes throughout the 80s, had he not suffered a career ending injury.

Agree a big loss and clearly world class. Was he hard/ruthless enough to be World Champion is maybe the question mark, clearly he had the talent? 

[waiheke1]

On 7/29/2022 at 3:07 PM, Sidney the robin said:

You must of seen Mike plenty of times at White City over the years Steve? i was fortunate anough to see him ride quite often.Have acquired quite alot of the 1983 footage of Michael and it still gives me great pleasure in seeing him reinvent himself after the 81/82 disaster seasons( a great 81 Longtrack victory though).

Have to say, 81 Lee was not as bad as some have made out. Disappointing compared to 79/80, but arguably still one of the top 5 riders in the world and Long track champ. 82 Lee was considerably worse...

[Sidney the robin]

3 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983

 

Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3

 

Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0

 

Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4)

Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6)

Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9)

Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11)

Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13)

Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15)

Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17)

Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21)

Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22)

Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24)

Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25)

Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27)

Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

Thanks for that Waiheke1 must appreciated.

[waiheke1]

And in case you were interested Sid, Aces vs Sheffield 1/10/83

Golden Helmet:

1. Morton Lee 67.9

2. Lee  Morton 67.1

3. Lee Morton 68.7

Aces vs Sheffield:

Ht1: Lee L Carr Ross P White fell 69.3   3-3

ht 5: Lee P Carr D Morton P Collins Fell 70.0 (Collins fell L4 while leading) 15-15

ht8: Lee Wilson L Carr Smith 70.4   23-25

ht11: Lee Morton Bargh Smith 70.2  35-31

ht 13: Lee P Collins G Short C Morton ef D Morton ex tapes 70.4 Morton ef L3 while in second  42-36

Lee 15 point maximum 

(Meeting a double-header; Aces vs Birmingham followed, with Nielsen scoring 13, beaten twice by Mort)

 

[arnieg]

4 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Would agree with this. My stat ratings (which I'd like to update with a slightly revised methodology if I ever get time) had Nielsen top in 83, followed by Eric, Siggy then Lee. I suspect in a GP series Hans would have taken the title with Lee second. 

The rankings had Siggy third in the world in 82&83, 4th in 84 in a significantly curtailed season (Lee 5th). 

Possibly the best ever thread on this forum was the one about who would have been world champion in each of the seasons pre 1994 had they used a GP format. And 1983 was the one year that caused us most trouble with no real consensus and few strongly held views in favour of anyone.

[waiheke1]

5 hours ago, arnieg said:

Possibly the best ever thread on this forum was the one about who would have been world champion in each of the seasons pre 1994 had they used a GP format. And 1983 was the one year that caused us most trouble with no real consensus and few strongly held views in favour of anyone.

Yep, great discussion, and agreed on 83. Half a dozen candidates, though realistically I find it hard to see past Nielsen or Lee, possibly Siggy. But then Gundersen did win the BLRC so maybe could have done enough; and if KC was not recovering from the immense disappointment of LA, maybe his season would have been different; and if they'd run it on genuine race tracks maybe Mort would have been in the running for the podium; or maybe Billy could have lifted himself for the big meetings as he tended to do on world final night;  still Hans from Lee for me though...

[fatface]

13 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983

 

Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3

 

Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0

 

Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4)

Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6)

Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9)

Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11)

Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13)

Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15)

Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17)

Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21)

Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22)

Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24)

Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25)

Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27)

Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

...and I bet Louis Carr "absolutely destroyed" Mike Lee in heat 10 

And who would've thought Andy Campbell would be the Aces' star signing two years on?

Thanks. Here's a beaut of a picture from heat 1..

Edited August 1, 2022 by falcace

[fatface]

2 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Yep, great discussion, and agreed on 83. Half a dozen candidates, though realistically I find it hard to see past Nielsen or Lee, possibly Siggy. But then Gundersen did win the BLRC so maybe could have done enough; and if KC was not recovering from the immense disappointment of LA, maybe his season would have been different; and if they'd run it on genuine race tracks maybe Mort would have been in the running for the podium; or maybe Billy could have lifted himself for the big meetings as he tended to do on world final night;  still Hans from Lee for me though...

Agreed. Would have been a lot of GP winners. Mort started the season on fire, Lee and Carter picked it up late season. Gundersen, Sigalos and Sanders all had their moments. But out of all them, they were all prone to a bad night here and there. That hardly ever happened with Nielsen.

[Sidney the robin]

13 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

And in case you were interested Sid, Aces vs Sheffield 1/10/83

Golden Helmet:

1. Morton Lee 67.9

2. Lee  Morton 67.1

3. Lee Morton 68.7

Aces vs Sheffield:

Ht1: Lee L Carr Ross P White fell 69.3   3-3

ht 5: Lee P Carr D Morton P Collins Fell 70.0 (Collins fell L4 while leading) 15-15

ht8: Lee Wilson L Carr Smith 70.4   23-25

ht11: Lee Morton Bargh Smith 70.2  35-31

ht 13: Lee P Collins G Short C Morton ef D Morton ex tapes 70.4 Morton ef L3 while in second  42-36

Lee 15 point maximum 

(Meeting a double-header; Aces vs Birmingham followed, with Nielsen scoring 13, beaten twice by Mort)

Thanks again to beat Mort 2.1 at Hyde rd took some doing but to beat Carter  4,.0 and Erik 4.0  in the helmet took some doing.to.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

Agreed. Would have been a lot of GP winners. Mort started the season on fire, Lee and Carter picked it up late season. Gundersen, Sigalos and Sanders all had their moments. But out of all them, they were all prone to a bad night here and there. That hardly ever happened with Nielsen.

It did at Hackney in the test he was awful as was Erik       Lee / Carter had the beating of  both of them...Both Lee/Carter could beat anyone at any given time generally check the head to head over the years between Lee / Nielsen very interesting reading Falcace  from 1977 -1984.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[fatface]

12 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

It did at Hackney in the test he was awful as was Erik       Lee / Carter had the beating of  both of them...Both Lee/Carter could beat anyone at any given time generally check the head to head over the years between Lee / Nielsen very interesting reading Falcace  from 1977 -1984.

Great. Always interesting to see head to heads. From the year we are debating would certainly be interesting. Just to flag though, their two meetings in the World Championship were both won by Nielsen.

Yes, I can see that 8 points from 6 is a poor return from Nielsen in this one test you seem so interested in. Then again, it does better the 3, 4 and 4 posted by Lee in in the USA tests that season, albeit around a decent 12 pointer.

Sorry to hear that Nielsen and Gundersen were so awful that night at Hackney with Lee and Carter having the beating of them. Below par they may have been, but the records show that Nielsen actually beat Carter in both their meetings and Gundersen also still got the better of Lee once....not bad for "awful".

 

3rd Test at Hackney 8th July
Ht 1: Carter, Olsen, L Collins, Knudsen 62.0 4-2 4-2
Ht 2: Lee, Nielsen, P Collins, Thomsen 61.4 4-2 8-4
Ht 3: Ravn, Morton, Jessup, Gundersen 61.8 3-3 11-7
Ht 4: P Collins, Lee, Olsen, Knudsen 62.7 5-1 16-8
Ht 5: Jessup, Morton, Thomsen, Nielsen 62.7 5-1 21-9
Ht 6: Carter, L Collins, Gundersen, Ravn 62.5 5-1 26-10
Ht 7: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen 63.0 4-2 30-12
Ht 8: Nielsen, L Collins, Thomsen, Carter (ret) 63.2 2-4 32-16
Ht 9: Lee, Gundersen, Ravn, P Collins 62.4 3-3 35-19
Ht 10: Carter, Olsen, Rasmussen, L Collins (f) no time 3-3 38-22
Ht 11: Lee, P Collins, Eriksen, Nielsen (exc) 63.1 5-1 43-23
Ht 12: Jessup, Gundersen, Morton, Ravn 63.4 4-2 47-25
Ht 13: Lee, Olsen, Knudsen, P Collins 62.3 3-3 50-28
Ht 14: Thomsen, Morton, Jessup, Nielsen 63.2 3-3 53-31
Ht 15: Carter, Ravn, Gundersen, L Collins 63.3 3-3 56-34
Ht 16: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen (f exc) 64.2 4-2 60-36
Ht 17: Nielsen, Carter, Thomsen, L Collins 63.6 2-4 62-40
Ht 18: Gundersen, Lee, P Collins, Ravn 63.3 3-3 65-43

[waiheke1]

In major meetings that season, I make it 5-2 to Lee. 

Nielsen beating Lee in both meetings in the world championship, but Lee beating Nielsen twice in the test, twice in the BLRC and beating him again in the WTC Final.

Interesting though H2H results are, I'm always a little skeptical as to how meaningful they are, especially over such a low population (as opposed to today, where top GP riders will meet each other 15-20 times in the GPS alone.)

[waiheke1]

22 hours ago, falcace said:

...and I bet Louis Carr "absolutely destroyed" Mike Lee in heat 10 

And who would've thought Andy Campbell would be the Aces' star signing two years on?

Thanks. Here's a beaut of a picture from heat 1..

Funny you should say that, handwritten in my programme from the 1982 meeting vs Kings Lynn is "L Carr destroyed Lee" after a ht8 (I think) victory.

And that is a cracking photo, I have memories of Lee that season being unbelievably quick on occasion. Larry and Louis were a great 1-2 pairing for the Aces. 

As for the Andy Campbell signing, I think that was the worst of the Bamford era (ahead of Crang and Ingels - of all the Americans to sign, why the one who couldn't ride big tracks! - who were both in the same season)

[fatface]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

Funny you should say that, handwritten in my programme from the 1982 meeting vs Kings Lynn is "L Carr destroyed Lee" after a ht8 (I think) victory.

And that is a cracking photo, I have memories of Lee that season being unbelievably quick on occasion. Larry and Louis were a great 1-2 pairing for the Aces. 

As for the Andy Campbell signing, I think that was the worst of the Bamford era (ahead of Crang and Ingels - of all the Americans to sign, why the one who couldn't ride big tracks! - who were both in the same season)

Louis and Larry Ross were engine room pair that probably won the Aces the title in 82, coming up with important points when the mattered. Both dipped a bit in 83 and with that, so too did the Aces.

[fatface]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

In major meetings that season, I make it 5-2 to Lee. 

Nielsen beating Lee in both meetings in the world championship, but Lee beating Nielsen twice in the test, twice in the BLRC and beating him again in the WTC Final.

Interesting though H2H results are, I'm always a little skeptical as to how meaningful they are, especially over such a low population (as opposed to today, where top GP riders will meet each other 15-20 times in the GPS alone.)

Definitely interesting and sometimes revealing, but not always presenting an accurate picture. For example, Gundersen has an 8-3 head to head comparison with Nielsen in World Finals and I think that does reveal something of a psychological edge he had over his rival. On the flipside, Carl Blackbird bagged a few wins against Nielsen, but I can't put that down to anything more than a quirk.

[Sidney the robin]

3 hours ago, falcace said:

Definitely interesting and sometimes revealing, but not always presenting an accurate picture. For example, Gundersen has an 8-3 head to head comparison with Nielsen in World Finals and I think that does reveal something of a psychological edge he had over his rival. On the flipside, Carl Blackbird bagged a few wins against Nielsen, but I can't put that down to anything more than a quirk.

For me Erik always held an edge in big meetings against Hans pressure maybe who knows.Hans after his lucky let off against Tommy went on and look he was a great rider.My point was 1983 the BEST version of a Lee and a Carter had the beating of him Hans went to Oxford went up a few levels where certain riders fell away.

[steve roberts]

3 hours ago, falcace said:

Definitely interesting and sometimes revealing, but not always presenting an accurate picture. For example, Gundersen has an 8-3 head to head comparison with Nielsen in World Finals and I think that does reveal something of a psychological edge he had over his rival. On the flipside, Carl Blackbird bagged a few wins against Nielsen, but I can't put that down to anything more than a quirk.

...and yet they both won three World Finals before Erik's tragic accident which again does say sometihng about Nielsen's overal competitive ability.

As regards Carl Blackbird as they say, I was there, and all his stars were perfectly alligned on that evening. He never again rose to that level.

[Sidney the robin]

20 hours ago, falcace said:

Great. Always interesting to see head to heads. From the year we are debating would certainly be interesting. Just to flag though, their two meetings in the World Championship were both won by Nielsen.

Yes, I can see that 8 points from 6 is a poor return from Nielsen in this one test you seem so interested in. Then again, it does better the 3, 4 and 4 posted by Lee in in the USA tests that season, albeit around a decent 12 pointer.

Sorry to hear that Nielsen and Gundersen were so awful that night at Hackney with Lee and Carter having the beating of them. Below par they may have been, but the records show that Nielsen actually beat Carter in both their meetings and Gundersen also still got the better of Lee once....not bad for "awful".

 

3rd Test at Hackney 8th July
Ht 1: Carter, Olsen, L Collins, Knudsen 62.0 4-2 4-2
Ht 2: Lee, Nielsen, P Collins, Thomsen 61.4 4-2 8-4
Ht 3: Ravn, Morton, Jessup, Gundersen 61.8 3-3 11-7
Ht 4: P Collins, Lee, Olsen, Knudsen 62.7 5-1 16-8
Ht 5: Jessup, Morton, Thomsen, Nielsen 62.7 5-1 21-9
Ht 6: Carter, L Collins, Gundersen, Ravn 62.5 5-1 26-10
Ht 7: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen 63.0 4-2 30-12
Ht 8: Nielsen, L Collins, Thomsen, Carter (ret) 63.2 2-4 32-16
Ht 9: Lee, Gundersen, Ravn, P Collins 62.4 3-3 35-19
Ht 10: Carter, Olsen, Rasmussen, L Collins (f) no time 3-3 38-22
Ht 11: Lee, P Collins, Eriksen, Nielsen (exc) 63.1 5-1 43-23
Ht 12: Jessup, Gundersen, Morton, Ravn 63.4 4-2 47-25
Ht 13: Lee, Olsen, Knudsen, P Collins 62.3 3-3 50-28
Ht 14: Thomsen, Morton, Jessup, Nielsen 63.2 3-3 53-31
Ht 15: Carter, Ravn, Gundersen, L Collins 63.3 3-3 56-34
Ht 16: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen (f exc) 64.2 4-2 60-36
Ht 17: Nielsen, Carter, Thomsen, L Collins 63.6 2-4 62-40
Ht 18: Gundersen, Lee, P Collins, Ravn 63.3 3-3 65-43

In heat 8  ( Hackney test ) Carter was in front having passed Hans on the second lap and packing up on the last lap.Falcace you odviously followed the professors career like Steve Roberts and he was a true GREAT he certainly grew on me over the years.Was never a fan but see him quite a bit for Oxford and other meetings and you had to be impressed by his perseverance after a few setbacks that really impressed me.But the most impressive thing from Hans was his brilliant longevity at the top and going out at the right time.Being a Lee fan 1983 was a reminder of just how good he was and to be able to beat Hans/Erik who were the benchmark was no mean feat.Looking on now Hans would certainly be in my top 6 riders of all time and how many more titles could he have won over the GP format??? quite a few i think.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[fatface]

12 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...and yet they both won three World Finals before Erik's tragic accident which again does say sometihng about Nielsen's overal competitive ability.

As regards Carl Blackbird as they say, I was there, and all his stars were perfectly alligned on that evening. He never again rose to that level.

And yet, despite that. I reckon Carl Blackbird could and should have gone on to a better career. He had talent and could ride all types of tracks. But even when he was signed by Belle Vue and broke into the England team, he still only had one bike strapped onto the back on his car. Never seemed to give it a proper crack.