Poole 1983.

[Sidney the robin]

Can anyone give me the heat details of Poole v Belle Vue ( h) and Belle Vue (a) and Halifax ( a) much appreciated can’t be bothered to dig out my speedway stars.Lee  that year was very good beat Hans/Erik easily at times also Kenny was sublime too.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts]

On 7/23/2022 at 1:54 PM, Sidney the robin said:

Can anyone give me the heat details of Poole v Belle Vue ( h) and Belle Vue (a) and Halifax ( a) much appreciated can’t be bothered to dig out my speedway stars.Lee  that year was very good beat Hans/Erik easily at times also Kenny was sublime too.

Hi Sid,

Right about Lee that year. He picked himself up and gave a very good account of himself at Norden (I was there)...shame it all went wrong agian the following season. He should have been a major force for most of the eighties giving the Danes a run for their money but alas his "demons" got the better of him.

[waiheke1]

I'll have the Aces v Poole result at home, will dig it out when back from holidays. I do remember Andy Smith passing him in heat 11 to join Mort for a 5-1

Also remember him scoring a flawless 15 point maximum as a guest for Sheffield at Hyde Rd that season

Edited July 28, 2022 by waiheke1

[Sidney the robin]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:06 PM, steve roberts said:

Hi Sid,

Right about Lee that year. He picked himself up and gave a very good account of himself at Norden (I was there)...shame it all went wrong agian the following season. He should have been a major force for most of the eighties giving the Danes a run for their money but alas his "demons" got the better of him.

The meetings that stick out for me were his paid 17 against Denmark 1983 at Hackney he was very good at the wick.Also beating Gundersen  at Dudley numerous times ( including golden helmet  ( and Carter 4.0 helmet) 1983.Just imagine a fit Carter and motiavated Lee they would of been competetive against Hans/ Erik.Having said that Hans improved when he moved to Cowley really frustrated how Lee,s career ended we all know just how good he was.In a way Steve we were both lucky we both see quite a bit of a young Michael and have good and bad memories  that still remain being stopped to ride in the 1984 British Final when cleared of the charges finished his career.

[steve roberts]

21 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The meetings that stick out for me were his paid 17 against Denmark 1983 at Hackney he was very good at the wick.Also beating Gundersen  at Dudley numerous times ( including golden helmet  ( and Carter 4.0 helmet) 1983.Just imagine a fit Carter and motiavated Lee they would of been competetive against Hans/ Erik.Having said that Hans improved when he moved to Cowley really frustrated how Lee,s career ended we all know just how good he was.In a way Steve we were both lucky we both see quite a bit of a young Michael and have good and bad memories  that still remain being stopped to ride in the 1984 British Final when cleared of the charges finished his career.

I saw a 14 year old Michael give interval demonstration rides against an equally young Colin Richardson at Cowley...easy to say who went on to be the better rider although Colin did show plenty of potential for one so young.

[Sidney the robin]

45 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I saw a 14 year old Michael give interval demonstration rides against an equally young Colin Richardson at Cowley...easy to say who went on to be the better rider although Colin did show plenty of potential for one so young.

You must of seen Mike plenty of times at White City over the years Steve? i was fortunate anough to see him ride quite often.Have acquired quite alot of the 1983 footage of Michael and it still gives me great pleasure in seeing him reinvent himself after the 81/82 disaster seasons( a great 81 Longtrack victory though).

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

You must of seen Mike plenty of times at White City over the years Steve? i was fortunate anough to see him ride quite often.Have acquired quite alot of the 1983 footage of Michael and it still gives me great pleasure in seeing him reinvent himself after the 81/82 disaster seasons( a great 81 Longtrack victory though).

Certainly did Sid! I remember the time in 1977 when he was about to walk out of the Knock Out Cup Semi-Final meeting due to constant engine problems but was sweet talked back into riding by Martin Rogers on the centre green right in front of us...as these things do if Michael had carried out his threat the "Rebels" may well have taken the double that year?

Also saw his bow riding for England against the Rest of the World (yes England were that good back then!) at Wood Lane.

Edited July 29, 2022 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

Certainly did Sid! I remember the time in 1977 when he was about to walk out of the Knock Out Cup Semi-Final meeting due to constant engine problems but was sweet talked back into riding by Martin Rogers on the centre green right in front of us...as these things do if Michael had carried out his threat the "Rebels" may well have taken the double that year?

Also saw his bow riding for England against the Rest of the World (yes England were that good back then!) at Wood Lane.

I first see Michael ride at the Abbey in the September 1975 he scored 10 points .Not the prettiest to watch but you knew he had class Gollob/ Ward are the only other two riders who rival him for natural talent  in my book.And to this day Craven, Collins, Lee, Woffinden are my top four English riders of alltime.

[fatface]

Lee was good in 1983. Very good. And at times, downright brilliant. I don't think he was the best rider in the world that year. That was probably Hans Nielsen. But he was back in the mix for sure and it would have been much more interesting having a motivated Lee, an active Penhall, a fit and stable Carter and a fit Sigalos around for a few more years to challenge and possibly beat Gundersen and Nielsen. 

[frigbo]

I recall Lee winning the Adver Superstars meeting at Swindon in '83. He broke the track record whilst pulling wheelies down the straights on the last couple of laps of one heat. Such skill...

[Sidney the robin]

4 hours ago, falcace said:

Lee was good in 1983. Very good. And at times, downright brilliant. I don't think he was the best rider in the world that year. That was probably Hans Nielsen. But he was back in the mix for sure and it would have been much more interesting having a motivated Lee, an active Penhall, a fit and stable Carter and a fit Sigalos around for a few more years to challenge and possibly beat Gundersen and Nielsen. 

I don’t think Nielsen in 83 was anywhere near the best rider in the world he was world class not doubt it. But in 83 Carter beat him easily in the helmet .And at Hackney  in the test match Lee/ Carter both destroyed Hans/Erik.Lee beat Hans in both the BLRC at Belle Vue and the pride of the east meetings comfortably 1984/ Hans moved up a level.

[steve roberts]

14 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I don’t think Nielsen in 83 was anywhere near the best rider in the world he was world class not doubt it. But in 83 Carter beat him easily in the helmet .And at Hackney  in the test match Lee/ Carter both destroyed Hans/Erik.Lee beat Hans in both the BLRC at Belle Vue and the pride of the east meetings comfortably 1984/ Hans moved up a level.

...obviously moving to Oxford gave him that extra incentive which was missing at his previous clubs and, as they say, the rest is history!

[fatface]

11 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I don’t think Nielsen in 83 was anywhere near the best rider in the world he was world class not doubt it. But in 83 Carter beat him easily in the helmet .And at Hackney  in the test match Lee/ Carter both destroyed Hans/Erik.Lee beat Hans in both the BLRC at Belle Vue and the pride of the east meetings comfortably 1984/ Hans moved up a level.

You say that....but...

• Nielsen topped the averages with 10.82. Lee was 6th with 10.16 and third Englishman.
• Nielsen won the Intercontinental Final.
• Nielsen would have been in a run-off for 2nd in the World Final with Sanders had he not packed up in the final race whilst well ahead making Lee 4th.
• Nielsen won the World Team Cup with Denmark, dropping only 1point through qualifiers and final.

I think that clearly trumps anything achieved by Lee, who finished the season very well, but was actually pretty poor in test series against USA (for example). Nielsen actually won things that year and finished as the top rider in the British League.

It's easy to fall into the trap of overestimating a performance of a rider on some cherry picked meetings, but ultimately they are deemed pretty irrelevant in a wider scene. I think I have said on here before I saw Chris Morton single handedly blitz a field of Nielsen, Wigg, Moran, Gundersen, Pedersen, Knudsen, Tatum at the British Open Pairs at Sheffield a week before the 86 World Final. I was convinced he had a huge chance of being World Champion a week later. But the natural order resumed when it really mattered and Mort finished down the field.

[Sidney the robin]

9 hours ago, falcace said:

You say that....but...

• Nielsen topped the averages with 10.82. Lee was 6th with 10.16 and third Englishman.
• Nielsen won the Intercontinental Final.
• Nielsen would have been in a run-off for 2nd in the World Final with Sanders had he not packed up in the final race whilst well ahead making Lee 4th.
• Nielsen won the World Team Cup with Denmark, dropping only 1point through qualifiers and final.

I think that clearly trumps anything achieved by Lee, who finished the season very well, but was actually pretty poor in test series against USA (for example). Nielsen actually won things that year and finished as the top rider in the British League.

It's easy to fall into the trap of overestimating a performance of a rider on some cherry picked meetings, but ultimately they are deemed pretty irrelevant in a wider scene. I think I have said on here before I saw Chris Morton single handedly blitz a field of Nielsen, Wigg, Moran, Gundersen, Pedersen, Knudsen, Tatum at the British Open Pairs at Sheffield a week before the 86 World Final. I was convinced he had a huge chance of being World Champion a week later. But the natural order resumed when it really mattered and Mort finished down the field.

You said Nielsen was the best rider probably..? in1983 ..Lee got injured in the test series at Wimbledon in the USA tests.yet stats say Nielsen was great .For me  1983 Lee/Carter  had the  beating of him not easily  but t in 83 Lee and Carter blew him away often yes HANS was a great RIDER  and went on to prove GREATNESS.but not in 1983.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

You said Nielsen was the best rider probably..? in1983 ..Lee got injured in the test series at Wimbledon in the USA tests.yet stats say Nielsen was great .For me  1983 Lee/Carter  had the  beating of him not easily  of but t in 83 Lee and Carter blew him away often yes HANS was a great RIDER  and went on to prove GREATNESS.

Biased, I know, but Nielsen was THE rider of the middle/late eighties/early nineties in my opinion as Ivan was in the seventies with Olsen poking his nose in now and again although Peter Collins gave them the runaround and Michanek was sublime in 1973.

[Sidney the robin]

18 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Biased, I know, but Nielsen was THE rider of the middle/late eighties/early nineties in my opinion as Ivan was in the seventies with Olsen poking his nose in now and again although Peter Collins gave them the runaround and Michanek was sublime in 1973.

For me Steve Ivan/ ( Ole  he was not everyone’s cup of tea not yours ) were the benchmark from 69 / 73 .Michanek was a mega rider a beast top class Tommy got killed when approaching his peak Collins and  then a gangly Lee come on the scene.

[fatface]

3 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

You said Nielsen was the best rider probably..? in1983 ..Lee got injured in the test series at Wimbledon in the USA tests.yet stats say Nielsen was great .For me  1983 Lee/Carter  had the  beating of him not easily  but t in 83 Lee and Carter blew him away often yes HANS was a great RIDER  and went on to prove GREATNESS.but not in 1983.

Hmmm...ok. Either you form an opinion based on credible evidence and facts or you don't.

Waiheke1 had already mentioned Andy Smith beating Lee in 83. And I'm sure there are other examples of lesser riders beating Nielsen that year. But the bigger picture and the facts show Hans Nielsen consistently scored more points than any other rider that year and finished it as the BL no1, Intercontinental Champion, Nordic Champion, WTC winner, World Pairs bronze. Mike Lee had a very good year. But he won nowt. 

Worth a look at a title deciding big race between the two in 83....if there is any "blowing away" to be done, Nielsen is not the one on the receiving end....

 

For what it's worth, I think the bigger loss to the sport post 83 was Dennis Sigalos....a real class act. With a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen, he was nearing his peak. And unlike Lee, his loss to the sport wasn't self inflicted.  I think he had the skill, talent, professionalism to be in there with Nielsen and Gundersen fighting for the big prizes throughout the 80s, had he not suffered a career ending injury.

[Sidney the robin]

8 hours ago, falcace said:

Hmmm...ok. Either you form an opinion based on credible evidence and facts or you don't.

Waiheke1 had already mentioned Andy Smith beating Lee in 83. And I'm sure there are other examples of lesser riders beating Nielsen that year. But the bigger picture and the facts show Hans Nielsen consistently scored more points than any other rider that year and finished it as the BL no1, Intercontinental Champion, Nordic Champion, WTC winner, World Pairs bronze. Mike Lee had a very good year. But he won nowt. 

Worth a look at a title deciding big race between the two in 83....if there is any "blowing away" to be done, Nielsen is not the one on the receiving end....

 

For what it's worth, I think the bigger loss to the sport post 83 was Dennis Sigalos....a real class act. With a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen, he was nearing his peak. And unlike Lee, his loss to the sport wasn't self inflicted.  I think he had the skill, talent, professionalism to be in there with Nielsen and Gundersen fighting for the big prizes throughout the 80s, had he not suffered a career ending injury.

I certainly agree with you Falcace on the Siggy assumption he was a class act and would of been a threat to the Danes.Also don’t forget Billy the kid he was approaching his peak before his passing and had really pushed on in his career.Back to Lee yes of course most of his problems were of his own doing but was also pushed along the way with the help of a few vindictive people within the speedway circle.If times had of been different we COULD of had a period of a fit/ Stable Carter, a motiavated Lee, Siggy, Billy, Erik, Hans all pushing for glory it was not to be.1983 was a very good season for me enjoyed it very much even though the Swindon Robins had a dreadful team shocking really.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[waiheke1]

Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983

 

Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3

 

Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0

 

Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4)

Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6)

Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9)

Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11)

Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13)

Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15)

Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17)

Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21)

Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22)

Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24)

Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25)

Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27)

Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

[waiheke1]

On 7/29/2022 at 11:39 PM, falcace said:

Lee was good in 1983. Very good. And at times, downright brilliant. I don't think he was the best rider in the world that year. That was probably Hans Nielsen. But he was back in the mix for sure and it would have been much more interesting having a motivated Lee, an active Penhall, a fit and stable Carter and a fit Sigalos around for a few more years to challenge and possibly beat Gundersen and Nielsen. 

Would agree with this. My stat ratings (which I'd like to update with a slightly revised methodology if I ever get time) had Nielsen top in 83, followed by Eric, Siggy then Lee. I suspect in a GP series Hans would have taken the title with Lee second. 

The rankings had Siggy third in the world in 82&83, 4th in 84 in a significantly curtailed season (Lee 5th).