Killing the sport

[cowboy cookie returns?]

I've seen the cost of living mentioned as a factor. I'm not really buying that. It may be a factor this year however speedway attendance levels have been in decline for past 30 years and in Sharp decline for the past 10.

The sport doesn't have any credibility outside of its own inner circle the team competitions are run as a merry go round circus of riders of which a high proportion could appear for any team in any competition at anytime. The out of control doubling up & use of guests takes away any worth from these competitions. I hate to pick on Chris Harris but he highlights the issue. In the past week he has ridden for 3 different clubs across 2 divisions if Plymouth hadn't been called off on Tuesday it would have been 4 that is madness.

The answers aren't easy and to be honest it could well be too late to save speedway let alone grow the sport.

I don't like football comparison's however here in Ipswich we had a club that was on its knees no investment no interaction with the community. The club gets taken over investment is made it becomes attached to the local community again regularly starts pulling in gates in the mid 20000s  and has sold almost 16000 season tickets for next season. 

Why it became appealing to go again they won back fans who hadn't been in years myself included but also a whole new audience.

 

[FAST GATER]

Sadly I just don't think the sport has any future as a full time  ocupation for those that take part ,even in the boom years of the 70's most riders were part timers . I know it is said that riders need three bikes and paid pit crew these days but if there was a scaling back of such costs they may actually make more/same  money .I remember talking in the 70's to a second string who  after costs was  making almost as much as the team's star rider.He had good reliable engines non of the flashy bike add on's .

Edited June 10, 2022 by FAST GATER

[topaz325]

Given the right conditions at clubs the sport may survive , running on a day when fans want to attend , a track that is fit for racing and adequate facilities .

As Steve Lawson alluded to on a recent podcast , give the riders a decent track to race on and they will most likely entertain the crowd, it really does not matter what level of rider either .

He was also against tracks  made to fit around sports pitches, eg rugby, football and defiantly no stock cars.

Now I realise there are many tracks in use today that are used in conjunction with other sports and we have to live with these.

The only tracks I regularly visit now are Glasgow and Belle Vue which provide  good racing and decent facilities on a regular basis.

Although Glasgow disappointed a few times , maybe not their fault , about three or four years ago Birmingham turned up with a woefully weak team and last year I attended the Leicester fixture which had to be cancelled before a wheel was turned in front of decent crowd because of track problems (early afternoon rain ).

[GWC]

4 hours ago, FAST GATER said:

Sadly I just don't think the sport has any future as a full time  ocupation for those that take part ,even in the boom years of the 70's most riders were part timers . I know it is said that riders need three bikes and paid pit crew these days but if there was a scaling back of such costs they may actually make more/same  money .I remember talking in the 70's to a second string who  after costs was  making almost as much as the team's star rider.He had good reliable engines non of the flashy bike add on's .

I agree it matters not to me that a rider has 3 bikes or a great pit crew which, as you say didn’t happen in the 70’s.

But Ivan Mauger and alike were different and remained at the top of the sport as they had the best equipment and back up which others couldn’t aspire to or afford.

Today's riders want the best to be the best and that’s progress I guess but at huge cost. 
I also think the promoters are at fault here demanding consistent scoring from their riders who will be sacked if they dip below expectations.

[Come on the Skipper]

18 hours ago, GWC said:

Sweden boomed when Tony Rickardson appeared and started winning everything Denmark built speedway centres after Ole Olsen won the world title in 1971 by 1979 they were a world power.

I don’t know how we can have another revival like 1965 did after the slow decline at the end of the 1950’s.

Its a totally different world now and people want different things standing watching 4 blokes go round a track doesn’t seem to excite the young.

The atmosphere when I first went in the early 70’s has never been repeated sadly and now the south east is lost to the sport it only makes it worse.

My Mrs is away this weekend so I thought I might take a trip to a meeting, but the nearest to me on Saturday is Leicester, a 272 mile round trip. Sunday is even worse, Newcastle is my closest meeting and that's a return trip of 606 miles! Although, I can at least watch the Newcastle match on BSN.

Long gone are the days of Arena on a Friday, Canterbury on Saturday and Mildenhall on Sunday (Yes, I know that I'm showing my age)

 

[mikebv]

13 minutes ago, GWC said:

I agree it matters not to me that a rider has 3 bikes or a great pit crew which, as you say didn’t happen in the 70’s.

But Ivan Mauger and alike were different and remained at the top of the sport as they had the best equipment and back up which others couldn’t aspire to or afford.

Today's riders want the best to be the best and that’s progress I guess but at huge cost. 
I also think the promoters are at fault here demanding consistent scoring from their riders who will be sacked if they dip below expectations.

It is ultimately everyone from Promoters to Riders all racing to the bottom though isnt it?

Clubs subsidising their riders own individual aspirations through their salaries...

Individual success that will have zero positive impact (or very little at best), to the Promoters own business.. 

Fans then having to pay increased admission fees to get in to watch riders who have spent £30k and more on machinery..

And all to try and win competitions that, due to the way they are ran, will send hardly a ripple of recognition through the conurbations on their doorsteps, never mind have any impact on a wider national level..

Literally millions will be paid out across the 3 Divisions by riders, promoters and fans...

Therefore. You do have to ask "Why?" When the growth of the sport seems to get no forward or upward movement out of such a huge ongoing annual outlay...

[Hawk127]

14 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Been banging this drum for a few years now, British speedway is run by the riders for the riders and until  someone somewhere within the sport realises the fans are the be all and end all the sport will continue to die 

Most would agree but some fault does llay with many supporters who for reasons best known to them will rarely turn out for anything other than a team league or cup match. Go back a good few years and you had a number of prestigious individual meetings and for local interest, three and four team tournaments (e g Eastbourne, Rayleigh, Canterbury etc. In the south east ) and admittedly a good few years back in that example but fans did turn up. League racing played a part but so did the array of other meetings which made up a seasons entertainment from March through to November but I guess the difference was that the sport had its villains and the good guys and that was not only the riders but the promoters so the entertainment value was on and off track.

The promoters will not gamble money putting on a meeting knowing that they are unlikely to make a profit and with the lack of sponsorship for the big meetings which might attract the top names for the right money racing on a night when you will almost fill a stadium (Friday, Saturday or Sunday particularly when Poland take a summer break) means supporters are left with what you have today. The lack of large corporates/household names willing to underwrite a meeting is understandable  as no one with a decent brand  will want to be associated with a sport for all the reasons quoted by many of the more knowledgable contributors to this topic.

So many issues arise be it from the state of the stadiums and facilities through to rider ability to rules. You then have the restrictions on rider movements between the U K and Europe so the sport has a lot to deal with but it is not helped by the custodians of the sport having failed miserably to grasp the post covid opportunity to reinvent the sport by trying something different to attract lapsed punters and new ones too. It will continue to experience a decline in interest from joe public until the promoters decide to look inwardly at what they have and stop looking at the sport through rose tinted glasses.

[IainB]

19 hours ago, Come on the Skipper said:

My Mrs is away this weekend so I thought I might take a trip to a meeting, but the nearest to me on Saturday is Leicester, a 272 mile round trip. Sunday is even worse, Newcastle is my closest meeting and that's a return trip of 606 miles! Although, I can at least watch the Newcastle match on BSN.

Long gone are the days of Arena on a Friday, Canterbury on Saturday and Mildenhall on Sunday (Yes, I know that I'm showing my age)

 

Where's you nearest airport? Get yourself over to Czestochowa v Torun on Sunday, could be there and back for the price of a trip to Leicester!

19 hours ago, GWC said:

I agree it matters not to me that a rider has 3 bikes or a great pit crew which, as you say didn’t happen in the 70’s.

But Ivan Mauger and alike were different and remained at the top of the sport as they had the best equipment and back up which others couldn’t aspire to or afford.

Today's riders want the best to be the best and that’s progress I guess but at huge cost. 
I also think the promoters are at fault here demanding consistent scoring from their riders who will be sacked if they dip below expectations.

I've always wondered what the benefit of top notch equipment is to riders. Personally I would have thought a rider would get a better performance increase by becoming a better rider rather than riding better bikes. It's a bit like the question always asked in F1, is it the car or is it the driver? How much percentage would you attribute to rider and bike? On a neutral track how many times out of 10 would, for example, Joe Thompson on a rocket ship beat Tai Woffinden on a donkey?

18 hours ago, Hawk127 said:

Most would agree but some fault does llay with many supporters who for reasons best known to them will rarely turn out for anything other than a team league or cup match. Go back a good few years and you had a number of prestigious individual meetings and for local interest, three and four team tournaments (e g Eastbourne, Rayleigh, Canterbury etc. In the south east ) and admittedly a good few years back in that example but fans did turn up. League racing played a part but so did the array of other meetings which made up a seasons entertainment from March through to November but I guess the difference was that the sport had its villains and the good guys and that was not only the riders but the promoters so the entertainment value was on and off track.

The promoters will not gamble money putting on a meeting knowing that they are unlikely to make a profit and with the lack of sponsorship for the big meetings which might attract the top names for the right money racing on a night when you will almost fill a stadium (Friday, Saturday or Sunday particularly when Poland take a summer break) means supporters are left with what you have today. The lack of large corporates/household names willing to underwrite a meeting is understandable  as no one with a decent brand  will want to be associated with a sport for all the reasons quoted by many of the more knowledgable contributors to this topic.

So many issues arise be it from the state of the stadiums and facilities through to rider ability to rules. You then have the restrictions on rider movements between the U K and Europe so the sport has a lot to deal with but it is not helped by the custodians of the sport having failed miserably to grasp the post covid opportunity to reinvent the sport by trying something different to attract lapsed punters and new ones too. It will continue to experience a decline in interest from joe public until the promoters decide to look inwardly at what they have and stop looking at the sport through rose tinted glasses.

The Peter Craven Memorial meeting at BV in March attracted a near sell out crowd on a Monday night with a pretty attractive line up, the racing was generally not great. Last years meeting was held on a Saturday night in October with an average line-up had some brilliant racing and wasn't more than half full... I'm not sure what tells us? Maybe it was the chance to see some riders that we don't normally get to see? The rider pool in the UK at the moment is so small I half expect to bump into Chris Harris on the tills in the local supermarket! Back in the day, you'd most likely get 1 chance to see Ivan Mauger ride at your track in the season and if you missed it, that was it, you'd have to travel or wait until next season.

[steve roberts]

55 minutes ago, iainb said:

Where's you nearest airport? Get yourself over to Czestochowa v Torun on Sunday, could be there and back for the price of a trip to Leicester!

I've always wondered what the benefit of top notch equipment is to riders. Personally I would have thought a rider would get a better performance increase by becoming a better rider rather than riding better bikes. It's a bit like the question always asked in F1, is it the car or is it the driver? How much percentage would you attribute to rider and bike? On a neutral track how many times out of 10 would, for example, Joe Thompson on a rocket ship beat Tai Woffinden on a donkey?

The Peter Craven Memorial meeting at BV in March attracted a near sell out crowd on a Monday night with a pretty attractive line up, the racing was generally not great. Last years meeting was held on a Saturday night in October with an average line-up had some brilliant racing and wasn't more than half full... I'm not sure what tells us? Maybe it was the chance to see some riders that we don't normally get to see? The rider pool in the UK at the moment is so small I half expect to bump into Chris Harris on the tills in the local supermarket! Back in the day, you'd most likely get 1 chance to see Ivan Mauger ride at your track in the season and if you missed it, that was it, you'd have to travel or wait until next season.

I remember gettting all excited as a kid when Ole Olsen was due at Cowley in 1972 in one of his too rare appearances. Ivan missed Cowley that season (when Belle Vue visited due to injury...wrists?) but I did get to see him at Reading's final meeting that season. The only occasion I saw him that season. Roll on many years and Erik Gundersen seemed to be riding at Cowley every other week during Oxford's "Glory Years".

[mikebv]

The "tipping point" of it being a credible offering in a Team Sport guise went probably a couple if decades ago, when 'Guestfests' started to appear regularly...

Usually to accommodate the individual aspirations of the top riders as the FIM grew its competitions..

Then along came Poland and to a lesser degree Sweden, with their "lands of milk and honey" and suddenly there wasnt enough riders of a level that the Promoters steadfastly (or maybe stubbornly?), wanted to run their clubs at..

Hence we jumped into 'Doubleupfests' taking place every night, with the obvious knock on effect of making even more 'Guestfests' when these riders were either needed in two places at once or got injured, meaning two teams (and for a time three teams when 'Trebling Up' was in place), needed covering with riders from other teams..

The answer to this issue was an obvious one..

Realign the leagues into 3 clearly demarcated ones, ensuring that each team had an even share of what "upper level talent" remained, and reduce the numbers in the team to at least six, thus ensuring each team came to the tapes at the "correct level" for their infrastructure with the reduction to six per team meaning enough riders were available to be competitive at thier 'natural level'..

With the number six riders in the top two leagues being "RS' level to ensure development of UK talent existed..

Instead. We had "let's do fixed race nights so the top names will come back"...

Which (as anyone with half a brain could foresee), didnt happen, and became "let's do fixed race nights so loads of riders can ride seven nights a week for any team that needs them, restricting clubs to nights on which they may not actually make the most money, and restricting the potential number of fans who attend given what should be a 'weekend sport' has now become an any night one"..

When it needed vision and a radical plan for 'stand alone' future growth, it just got more of the same fudge, make do and mend..

Sadly  A truly GREAT product, held back by ridiculous infrastructure..

[cowboy cookie returns?]

11 minutes ago, mikebv said:

The "tipping point" of it being a credible offering in a Team Sport guise went probably a couple if decades ago, when 'Guestfests' started to appear regularly...

Usually to accommodate the individual aspirations of the top riders as the FIM grew its competitions..

Then along came Poland and to a lesser degree Sweden, with their "lands of milk and honey" and suddenly there wasnt enough riders of a level that the Promoters steadfastly (or maybe stubbornly?), wanted to run their clubs at..

Hence we jumped into 'Doubleupfests' taking place every night, with the obvious knock on effect of making even more 'Guestfests' when these riders were either needed in two places at once or got injured, meaning two teams (and for a time three teams when 'Trebling Up' was in place), needed covering with riders from other teams..

The answer to this issue was an obvious one..

Realign the leagues into 3 clearly demarcated ones, ensuring that each team had an even share of what "upper level talent" remained, and reduce the numbers in the team to at least six, thus ensuring each team came to the tapes at the "correct level" for their infrastructure with the reduction to six per team meaning enough riders were available to be competitive at thier 'natural level'..

With the number six riders in the top two leagues being "RS' level to ensure development of UK talent existed..

Instead. We had "let's do fixed race nights so the top names will come back"...

Which (as anyone with half a brain could foresee), didnt happen, and became "let's do fixed race nights so loads of riders can ride seven nights a week for any team that needs them, restricting clubs to nights on which they may not actually make the most money, and restricting the potential number of fans who attend given what should be a 'weekend sport' has now become an any night one"..

When it needed vision and a radical plan for 'stand alone' future growth, it just got more of the same fudge, make do and mend..

Sadly  A truly GREAT product, held back by ridiculous infrastructure..

Spot on.

For some reason speedway in this country seems to not want to even attempt to change. Why that is I'm not sure. Clearly there are some people within the sport who understand professionalism.

My team Ipswich are one. The race suits matching bikes, and a real feeling or brand identity within the stadium on racenights is lightyears ahead of what it was even 15 years ago plus the Ipswich website is possibly the best out there.

So why does none of that travel further up the tree especially given Louis is a director of the BSPL

 

[moxey63]

As a spectacle, speedway is superb. But in that sense, it's a bit like Boris Johnson. It's only when you stay with it a while you realise it's having you over. Nearly 100 years of team racing and British speedway has never been further from that boast. After the a while, the razzle-dazzle wears thin and you just want something you can believe in.   

[FAST GATER]

I have always said s/way was a team sport ridden by individual's earning a living by piece work  and I don't think it will ever change now sadly .

That aside I think it needs someone to take control and inject enough money to get the riders attention something along the lines of Darts or Snooker with Hearne  .Look at this LIV Golf   a fraction of that money would launch British s/way to different level and customer base .

[GWC]

‘’On a neutral track how manytimes out of 10 would, for example, Joe Thompson on a rocket ship beat Tai Woffinden on a donkey?’’

I’m sure we all remember the Michanek v Collins k o cup run off at Belle Vue. Collins with a broken wrist so his clutch was on the throttle side and Mich jumping on Bernie Leigh’s bike as his own had gone bang. One of the best 2 man races you are likely to see!

 

 

[enotian]

24 minutes ago, FAST GATER said:

I have always said s/way was a team sport ridden by individual's earning a living by piece work  and I don't think it will ever change now sadly .

That aside I think it needs someone to take control and inject enough money to get the riders attention something along the lines of Darts or Snooker with Hearne  .Look at this LIV Golf   a fraction of that money would launch British s/way to different level and customer base .

Are Discovery Sports not the ideal organisation to take that control? Not just of the UK scene but internationally.

1. They seem to understand that the flag ship SGP needs a high quality field hence SGP2 and in particular SGP3 and SGP4 aimed at developing young talent. For all Greg Hancock was a great ambassador for the sport it's so much easier in a social media world to market young talents to the youth market.

2. They have the broadcast platform and need content to sell subscriptions. That only happens if the content is attractive enough. I doubt that the current offering of SGP/SON and British Premiership is.

3. They want to grow the sport globally, reignite old markets (USA, Australia) and expand into new ones (Asia, Middle East, maybe even Spain) for the purpose of attracting more subscriptions. To do that they need control over development.

You either work with them to realise the vision or you rally against it in the wilderness.

 

 

[mikebv]

17 minutes ago, enotian said:

Are Discovery Sports not the ideal organisation to take that control? Not just of the UK scene but internationally.

1. They seem to understand that the flag ship SGP needs a high quality field hence SGP2 and in particular SGP3 and SGP4 aimed at developing young talent. For all Greg Hancock was a great ambassador for the sport it's so much easier in a social media world to market young talents to the youth market.

2. They have the broadcast platform and need content to sell subscriptions. That only happens if the content is attractive enough. I doubt that the current offering of SGP/SON and British Premiership is.

3. They want to grow the sport globally, reignite old markets (USA, Australia) and expand into new ones (Asia, Middle East, maybe even Spain) for the purpose of attracting more subscriptions. To do that they need control over development.

You either work with them to realise the vision or you rally against it in the wilderness.

 

 

You would think Discovery would be the ideal partner..

The only concern would be that they would be used to dealing with fellow ultra professional organisations, who have individuals well versed in dealing with people of the same standard..

The GP's will have that given the level of organisations that have been behind them..

And you also have to have the concern that the Promoter's fierce desire to completely control the sport would ultimately scupper any company coming in to partner it/take over..

It would be game changer though if a huge global organisation got the opportunity, and autonomy, to lead the domestic sport out of it's current malaise, and into a bright new future.. 

Hope springs eternal...

Edited June 11, 2022 by mikebv

[ch958]

one big league. Count the number of available riders, divide by the number of clubs (plus Eastbourne and maybe Swindon) and thats how many riders per team you can have, probably 5. 16/18 team league, plenty variety, chance for the heat leaders to earn good money. People forget the reason some blokes had 10 plus averages was because the scarcity of meeting other top blokes during a season. There'd be plenty of 2/3 point averages but there always was AND they could still compete at NL level. I don't like the idea of 5 man teams but what else can you do?

[ch958]

in my personal opinion 2 and maybe 3 teams have signed riders knowing full well they wouldn't hang around so they could use (misuse) the guest rule. Having said that I don't know what else they could do in circumstances as they are.

[TINYS]

On 6/8/2022 at 10:18 PM, secsy1 said:

It is not just the Guest and rider replacement facility that has killed the sport so far this season.

Petrol prices and cost of living go part way, but the whole package as it stands is a bag of she ite.

Even if the 15 races are brilliant, who wants to watch a tractor on a Monday night at Belle Vue race round 9 times and not even grade the track, every 4 races!!!!!!!!

Fortunately I watched on Eurosport where it was just drivel from ill informed pundits and piss poor presentation.

But wait a minute you say, racing was superb (Which it was) but 1 hour 45 minutes of clap trap is not worth the 15 minutes.

Overhaul is not required, autopsy is

 

Regarding the tractor comment we get the same at Kings Lynn, Buster just loves to show off his collection of tractors and other bits of equipment he does more laps than the riders.

[IainB]

5 hours ago, mikebv said:

You would think Discovery would be the ideal partner..

The only concern would be that they would be used to dealing with fellow ultra professional organisations, who have individuals well versed in dealing with people of the same standard..

The GP's will have that given the level of organisations that have been behind them..

We are talking about the outfit that runs Eurosport don't forget