Newcastle vs Redcar SGB Championship 29th May 2022- 4pm

[cinderfella]

18 minutes ago, mikebaker said:

Diamonds official Website is not up to date. No mention of Starke missing. And no report on last night's meeting. 

Have the got a new Press Officer yet or were they left at the gate again?

[szkocjasid]

15 hours ago, Jaizer said:

You don't improve a product by reducing the quality to the lowest denominator. That's a recipe for disaster quicker than British speedway is going already. 

I think sedgys form so far in comparison to the 2 names aforementioned would be very desirable. As I understand the rules can apply for visas after 12 months, Grant's been in charge for far longer although I know some dispute with this being a new company I've read elsewhere might be why taken so long.

Even that situation, look at Birmingham. They've used belle Vue to sponsor Pearson and Glasgow to sponsor sedgy. There are way around it if you wish to find them.

I mean what do we do next season if a club decided to build 3/4 points below that points limit? Just keep reducing it? Here an idea, put bonus points back in GSA's. Job done

A lower points limit wouldn't necessarily mean a weaker league, the same rider would be racing, just shared out more equally between the teams!

[szkocjasid]

1 hour ago, cinderfella said:

The other factor streaming solves is dodgy weather forecasts.

If I was faced with the prospect of a 2 hour round trip and the possibility of a rain-off I know what I'd choose.

Clubs have to be careful though because a £12 stream can be watched by a roomful of people in a warm room with a good atmosphere and that could be a couple of hundred pounds in lost revenue to the team. I know EMTV is not available within a certain distance of Armadale but if there is another attractive meeting being streamed from elsewhere that evening I'm sure the weather (or opposition) would influence the decision.

That can work both ways, say there's a poor weather forecast, 50 fans decide to stay at home & watch the stream (maybe 30 sales), but if there was no stream maybe only 25 fans would give it a miss & the others chance it is on?

Streaming would help a club if a fan decides not to go in bad weather, but not if they would have gone if there was no stream to watch!

[ch958]

13 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

A lower points limit wouldn't necessarily mean a weaker league, the same rider would be racing, just shared out more equally between the teams!

This is the hoary old chestnut. The product is close racing not big names (and lets face it they're not actually big names in the 2nd div just big fish in a small pond).

The secondary issue is the route from div 3 to div 2 which is presently clogged with div 1 riders. 

[Mimmo]

2 hours ago, cinderfella said:

The thing is do people want meetings to be over quickly or do they want more entertainment, junior races, etc for their money.

When you consider actual racing probably takes between 15 and 18 minutes depending on the length of the track speedway doesn't offer good value for money.

Quite a few meetings I attend, people start to leave as soon as the interval comes, which is usually around Heat 11.  They've basically got fed up standing around watch the track being graded.  I agree about junior races as a second-half attraction, if that's when you meant it to be, and am personally all for that, but history in the modern era shows that the majority of people leave the stadium once the Main Event has finished.

So my point, although that's not what your commenting on, is maybe the presenters at these meetings, could ask those leaving two thirds of the way through the meeting, why they are doing so.  Maybe it isn't the tractor racing, but I wouldn't mind betting it is.     

Edited May 30, 2022 by Mimmo

[cinderfella]

Just out of interest can anyone tell me (since we don't have in Scotland (yet???) how attendances and admission prices at flat track meetings compares to speedway and how many riders/heats/classes are there?

I'm assuming flat track will be generally amateur so wondering how it compares and if speedway can learn anything from its cousin?

Would having different classes based on engine size, age of machine etc make speedway meetings more interesting and/or entertaining.

Would returning to semi-professional status reduce costs and perhaps even.make it more accessible for youngsters to try especially if we get away from specialised engines? 

[MRA]

3 minutes ago, Mimmo said:

Quite a few meetings I attend, people start to leave as soon as the interval comes, which is usually around Heat 11.  They've basically got fed up standing around watch the track being graded.  I agree about junior races as a second-half attraction, if that's when you meant it to be, and am personally all for that, but history in the modern era shows that the majority of people leave the stadium once the Main Event has finished.

So my point, although that's not what your commenting on, is maybe the presenters at these meetings, could ask those leaving two thirds of the way through the meeting, why they are doing so.  Maybe it isn't the tractor racing, but I wouldn't mind betting it is.     

The Problem with speedway is that the premier and championship leagues comprise of the same riders (44 riders out of 51) are championship riders riding in the premiership. There is no easy route for young riders to progress which means the sport will stagnate and will only survive by loosing one or two team per season. I have seen the sport decline season by season from the 1980s. The problem is the biggest gang of promoters sets the rules each season. Last year young riders were brought into the league but it had minor problems like Leon Flint staying at reserve on a seven point average. Instead of amending this to say any riders gets over 5 must go into the main body of the team for x number of matches. It was scrapped. Every season the rules change which will always be detrimental to the sport.

[Winditon]

5 hours ago, HendoWozGud said:

Forgive me for adding fuel to the fire but the negativity from the moment I walked into the stadium until the moment I left was palpable. At times I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Clearly the Diamonds fans I spoke with, and some of them are very long-standing ones as well, have had enough. They already appear to be voting with their feet as the attendance yesterday was poor and without the Redcar fans it would have been dreadful.

Someone said there was no atmosphere. There was from the Redcar fans but even they by the end were not as loud as they had been as they seemed somewhat embarrassed at how easy it was. Lest not anyone forget that they were excellent, really attacked the track and looked like a team that has been racing consistently and were on their metal.

Newcastle on the other hand were completely the opposite. Very, very rusty indeed apart from Howarth and again he's racing consistently. Losing Starke before the meeting was a huge blow. It may even get bigger if the rumours about him are true. Not my rumours BTW but rumours none-the-less. The Diamonds need a decision on BWD. Either get him fit and see what he's got to offer or cut him loose.

Wethers may well have a broken foot and be out for some time. The experiment of Congreve and Complin has been a disaster. One clearly is not ready for the show and whilst it's commendable that he spent so much of his own money, took the gamble to try and make it over here and can be applauded for doing so it's clear he's not good enough and the Management need to remember they are running a business.

The other reserve may or may not have suffered some poor refereeing decisions but in six rides he failed to score a point on his own track and when you weigh up that against what younger, fitter, hungrier reserves did in opposition again it begs the question that will he ever be good enough?

Clegg was clearly upset during the meeting and afterwards and his head just doesn't appear to be in it. Around Brough he's great, usually, but he needs more rides elsewhere if possible as he's another suffering from lack of track time. He has it within himself but his confidence and will seems lost at the moment.

Don't disagree within the current crop of riders of having Wright as captain but it's hard when he hardly sets his own track alight to see how he can inspire and help anyone around him. He's another clearly struggling for form and direction and until he finds that or indeed if he finds that can not be expected to be able to help others around him. 

It does perhaps seem a bit harsh to say that Heat 2 was the killer yesterday but it was. The feeling in both sets of camps when that race was completed and the riders returned to the pits was insane. One team already looked beaten and the other knew their opposition was there for the taking.

Have I any ideas where Newcastle can improve? No! But I'll tell you this, they do need to do so and quickly as it could be another track walk in September to remember what used to be. I do believe that Rob, Dave, Steve and those behind them are doing everything they can to change things around and are working night and day to try and change things.

They are not stupid, they are realists and they can see themselves just as the fans can that things need to change. Questions are 1.) have the will to do it? 2.) have they the money to do it? and 3.) if the answers to 1 & 2 are yes, have the riders they approach have the belief that they can do it?

From the outside looking in it's a mess. Leicester and Poole are the next two home meetings. Hardly a sobering thought for an administration and Club clearly out of sorts and battling against the odds. No BWD, no Starke and losing Wethers about two solid rides are all things that need to be taken into consideration. This is a side that is about to go into June and haven't had a chance, sometimes not of their own doing, to gel and become consistent. They may never get that.

I could urge patience. I could implore fans not to lose faith but it's very difficult to see that happening given the current situation. The terraces are just as shorn of regular committed fans as they are of new faces coming to watch. Speedway is a sport that is a spectacular and worthy one to support but it's very difficult to do so when the team you're watching week-in, week-out are so ineffective.

I also say that with the greatest respect to the guys going out there. They are trying their best but it's obvious they are not feeling it whether it's with themselves, with their machinery, with the promotion and management or just speedway life in general and that's hard to see and accept as fans.

One thing I would like to say and in some ways it might be another negative from a positive was the track. Without doubt the best I've seen it in years and seemed very smooth and fast reflected in the race times given out. Perhaps then that's one problem solved and now the Promotion and Management can move on to the next? 

Let's hope so as when I drove away from Brough Park last night I was seriously wondering how many, including myself, can continue to turn up and watch a famous, historic part of British Speedway slowly and painfully slip away.

Totally agree with your post. Not sure how much difference it would have made up to now but not having a team manager who can't motivate and seems pretty clueless doesn't help. Not sure if he does it voluntary but it needs addressing in my opinion. Let's hope we can turn it around 

[Sings4Speedway]

11 minutes ago, cinderfella said:

Just out of interest can anyone tell me (since we don't have in Scotland (yet???) how attendances and admission prices at flat track meetings compares to speedway and how many riders/heats/classes are there?

I'm assuming flat track will be generally amateur so wondering how it compares and if speedway can learn anything from its cousin?

Would having different classes based on engine size, age of machine etc make speedway meetings more interesting and/or entertaining.

Would returning to semi-professional status reduce costs and perhaps even.make it more accessible for youngsters to try especially if we get away from specialised engines? 

Ssshhhh....don't mention Flat Track. If any promotor stopped and thought about riders turning up and paying them to ride they would shut up shop in an instant. Very easy to see that pay to ride, practice days, amateur events can all generate a decent income for a venue (that has sensible out goings)  clearly wouldn't work everywhere but suits some. 

The issue with amateur/individual based is that you just won't get the attendances of riders or spectators in sufficient numbers over a sufficient amount of weeks. Interest might peak early on but will be very quiet before the season is out (and thats based upon happening on an appealing race day like a weekend) . The IOW are making it work but they have an exceptional team and ethos and the levels they put in would simply baffle most promotions.

[cinderfella]

10 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Ssshhhh....don't mention Flat Track. If any promotor stopped and thought about riders turning up and paying them to ride they would shut up shop in an instant. Very easy to see that pay to ride, practice days, amateur events can all generate a decent income for a venue (that has sensible out goings)  clearly wouldn't work everywhere but suits some. 

The issue with amateur/individual based is that you just won't get the attendances of riders or spectators in sufficient numbers over a sufficient amount of weeks. Interest might peak early on but will be very quiet before the season is out (and thats based upon happening on an appealing race day like a weekend) . The IOW are making it work but they have an exceptional team and ethos and the levels they put in would simply baffle most promotions.

Thanks for your answer. As I said we've not had a Flat Track meeting up here in Scotland and we don't have grasstrack either which is perhaps why we have a lack of riders of a certain standard up here.

[LisaColette]

1 hour ago, szkocjasid said:

That can work both ways, say there's a poor weather forecast, 50 fans decide to stay at home & watch the stream (maybe 30 sales), but if there was no stream maybe only 25 fans would give it a miss & the others chance it is on?

Streaming would help a club if a fan decides not to go in bad weather, but not if they would have gone if there was no stream to watch!

Yes, would be interesting to know how much streaming has affected the gate/admission, especially clubs like Poole, Plymouth, Edinburgh and Scunthorpe who do it weekly.

[Fortythirtyeight]

12 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Ssshhhh....don't mention Flat Track. If any promotor stopped and thought about riders turning up and paying them to ride they would shut up shop in an instant. Very easy to see that pay to ride, practice days, amateur events can all generate a decent income for a venue (that has sensible out goings)  clearly wouldn't work everywhere but suits some. 

The issue with amateur/individual based is that you just won't get the attendances of riders or spectators in sufficient numbers over a sufficient amount of weeks. Interest might peak early on but will be very quiet before the season is out (and thats based upon happening on an appealing race day like a weekend) . The IOW are making it work but they have an exceptional team and ethos and the levels they put in would simply baffle most promotions.

As Flat track events are run at a lot of current speedway tracks who hire out their stadium to the organisers what’s your point ?

The IOW make ‘ it work ‘ on a very small scale, riders pay to ride, they get a very small paying crowd, so it works on a very small and occasional scale, it’s not a full time business. Good on them for doing it but it doesn’t baffle anybody. 

[Fromafar]

50 minutes ago, MRA said:

The Problem with speedway is that the premier and championship leagues comprise of the same riders (44 riders out of 51) are championship riders riding in the premiership. There is no easy route for young riders to progress which means the sport will stagnate and will only survive by loosing one or two team per season. I have seen the sport decline season by season from the 1980s. The problem is the biggest gang of promoters sets the rules each season. Last year young riders were brought into the league but it had minor problems like Leon Flint staying at reserve on a seven point average. Instead of amending this to say any riders gets over 5 must go into the main body of the team for x number of matches. It was scrapped. Every season the rules change which will always be detrimental to the sport.

I’m not sure that you are correct about Flint ,think he finished up in main body of Team.

[cinderfella]

3 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

I’m not sure that you are correct about Flint ,think he finished up in main body of Team.

Has the fact that reserves are now considered part of a team a problem compared to the 'old days' when a team's reserve had to ride for his place week in week out against the other novices/juniors at their chosen track.

Certainly reserves back then wouldn't have been trying to make a full time living from the sport but it kept young riders on their toes looking to break into a team

[Fromafar]

1 minute ago, cinderfella said:

Has the fact that reserves are now considered part of a team a problem compared to the 'old days' when a team's reserve had to ride for his place week in week out against the other novices/juniors at their chosen track.

Certainly reserves back then wouldn't have been trying to make a full time living from the sport but it kept young riders on their toes looking to break into a team

Well remember the “ Vulture” races at Old Meadowbank.It was still difficult to get Jimmy Tannock out of the Team though.!!!

[Shadders]

19 hours ago, lisa-colette said:

There was talk of them coming back not too long ago. Do you think they will? 

You’re always hopeful, but I have my doubts 

[Shadders]

1 hour ago, Fromafar said:

I’m not sure that you are correct about Flint ,think he finished up in main body of Team.

He certainly did 

[mikebv]

22 hours ago, Jaizer said:

You don't improve a product by reducing the quality to the lowest denominator. That's a recipe for disaster quicker than British speedway is going already. 

I think sedgys form so far in comparison to the 2 names aforementioned would be very desirable. As I understand the rules can apply for visas after 12 months, Grant's been in charge for far longer although I know some dispute with this being a new company I've read elsewhere might be why taken so long.

Even that situation, look at Birmingham. They've used belle Vue to sponsor Pearson and Glasgow to sponsor sedgy. There are way around it if you wish to find them.

I mean what do we do next season if a club decided to build 3/4 points below that points limit? Just keep reducing it? Here an idea, put bonus points back in GSA's. Job done

One of the main issues facing the sport is that the Championship is too strong...

For example. Too many Div One HL's means it is too big a jump for Div 3 riders...

Which means they will have to find a way to reduce the standard, or run the same standard but with less teams...

There is zero point in running a match featuring a team with three Div One Heat Leaders against a team with none, as no one "wins", (especially the brand)...

The biggest challenge will be though how to reduce the level to make everyone competitive, whilst still giving Div One HL level riders plenty of rides in the Championship, whilst also charging circa twenty quid at Tier 2 level for the privilege to watch...

However that is the challenge that was obviously coming from the moment the double up/down floodgates were allowed to be opened, and a challenge that has so far been steadfastly avoided to be taken up...

Ironically the "lack of variety" Premiership is the one league of the top two that actually is competitive, so a reduction in teams in Div 2, (say eight?), maybe would deliver the same? 

With the rest forming a "decent level" 3rd Tier...

Less teams per league means more riders available to cover injuries and fixture clashes without using guests from the same league, which can only be a good thing to give the currently lacking in kudos leagues some real credibility..

Personally those teams that have taken advantage of the rules by upgrading at home, and also dont bother getting in guests away from home, deserve some credit for taking the advantage given by such a ridiculous situation of such an uncompetitive league being allowed to happen, especially when it was crystal clear the season would unfold exactly as it has..

Edited May 30, 2022 by mikebv

[Shadders]

2 hours ago, MRA said:

The Problem with speedway is that the premier and championship leagues comprise of the same riders (44 riders out of 51) are championship riders riding in the premiership. There is no easy route for young riders to progress which means the sport will stagnate and will only survive by loosing one or two team per season. I have seen the sport decline season by season from the 1980s. The problem is the biggest gang of promoters sets the rules each season. Last year young riders were brought into the league but it had minor problems like Leon Flint staying at reserve on a seven point average. Instead of amending this to say any riders gets over 5 must go into the main body of the team for x number of matches. It was scrapped. Every season the rules change which will always be detrimental to the sport.

They attempted something in the second tier in 2006, British reserves stayed at reserve no matter their average during the season. Steve Boxall (Rye House) and Jon Armstrong (Mildenhall) averaged 7 at one stage which some promoters didn’t like, so that idea was dropped mid season

Edited May 30, 2022 by Shadders

[ruffdiamond]

1 hour ago, Fromafar said:

I’m not sure that you are correct about Flint ,think he finished up in main body of Team.

 

9 minutes ago, Shadders said:

He certainly did 

 

5 minutes ago, Shadders said:

They attempted something in the second tier in 2006, British reserves stayed at reserve no matter their average during the season. Steve Boxall (Rye House) and Jon Armstrong (Mildenhall) averaged 7 at one stage which some promoters didn’t like, so that idea was dropped mid season

Maybe the guy meant, that Flint was doing a rising star thing for a 2 pointer/whatever as a guest?,,,

but yeah,he ended up in the main body for his home team,,, seems quite bizarre really.