Guest riders

[Jaizer]

2 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

I really dislike guests but just like penalty shoot outs there isn't a workable alternative unfortunately. 

Don't mention penalties, still traumatised from Wednesday night 

[ruffdiamond]

5 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

I really dislike guests but just like penalty shoot outs there isn't a workable alternative unfortunately. 

Could just bin it all off and go for a walk or something?

[mikebv]

56 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

I really dislike guests but just like penalty shoot outs there isn't a workable alternative unfortunately. 

Yet other countries dont use them and run their leagues fine...

Which shows that there very much is an alternative...

For me, a fit for purpose RR system would replace guests at a thrice..

Last night for example Kurtz and Wright could have taken all Zagars rides up to a maximum of seven each, (if Lemon had wanted them to)...

And promote Bailey into reserve and Brennan into number 2..

Years ago when the No1's ran 10/11 point plus averages and sometimes scored 40 - 50% of a teams points under the 13 heat formula, you can kind of see that they needed replacing.. 

Now the disparity in level between all the Heat Leaders and Second strings is much closer, as is the difference between Second Strings and Reserves..

So use that close level to put in an affective RR system...

Bottom line is injuries happen in all sports and they find a way of not doing what UK Speedway does..

The truth is, is that it is the lazy, too easy way to run it, rather than find a way of running the sport "properly", and of course it provides riders with earning potential seven days a week...

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by mikebv

[bigcatdiary]

2 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Yet other countries dont use them and run their leagues fine...

Which shows that there very much is an alternative...

For me, a fit for purpose RR system would replace guests at a thrice..

Last night for example Kurtz and Wright could have taken all Zagars rides up to a maximum of seven each, (if Lemon had wanted then to)...

And promote Bailey into reserve and Brennan into number 2..

Years ago when the No1's ran 10/11 point plus averages and sometimes scored 40 - 50% of a teams points under the 13 heat formula, you can kind of see that they needed replacing.. 

Now the disparity in level between all the Heat Leaders and Second strings is much closer, as is the difference between Second Strings and Reserves..

So use that close level to put in an affective RR system...

Bottom line is injuries happen in all sports and they find a way of not doing what UK Speedway does..

The truth is, is that it is the lazy, too easy way to run it, rather than find a way of running the sport "properly", and of course it provides riders with earning potential seven days a week...

 

You make a lot of good points, their could be a case for a guest for the missing No 1 rider but the guest for everything else has got completely out of hand again.

[HGould]

When I was a lad White City won a league title with R/R all season for Dag Lovaas. They rarely used Guests from memory.

Is it fairer to say that IF a Heat Leader gets a season long injury or withdraws his services that a short term Guest Facility is allowed (28 days) but after that the rule is to sign a permanent replacement of to be allowd R/R for the season.

R/R at a time of Heat Leader shortgaes may be the fairer option and give opportunity to a declared no 8 who could become a regular.

[GiveusaB]

13 hours ago, Triple.H. said:

Last night from what I've read and heard in the local media Nick Morris contacted someone, I don't know who  at approx 5pm to say he was stuck on the M5 due to an accident and unlikely to get there.

Oxford then contacted Bomber who's meeting at Poole had been called off early morning due to the poor weather forecast, a Len Silver special but proved correct. 

I don't have a clue where in the Midlands Bomber lives but when contacted he could get to Perry Barr and was happy to accept the booking. 

TBH any Birmingham fan who was at Oxford on Tuesday must have seen Nick Morris busting a gut on a heavy track that he's not ridden before to score points and earn money. So  as he's ridden Birmingham plenty of times do any of you think it made much difference ?

 

It definitely made a difference... Morris is nowhere near Bombers standard at PB.

However,  on the flip side, Kyle Howarth is streets ahead of Auty....so I think it evened itself.

 

[Tosh1218]

16 hours ago, Triple.H. said:

Last night from what I've read and heard in the local media Nick Morris contacted someone, I don't know who  at approx 5pm to say he was stuck on the M5 due to an accident and unlikely to get there.

Oxford then contacted Bomber who's meeting at Poole had been called off early morning due to the poor weather forecast, a Len Silver special but proved correct. 

I don't have a clue where in the Midlands Bomber lives but when contacted he could get to Perry Barr and was happy to accept the booking. 

TBH any Birmingham fan who was at Oxford on Tuesday must have seen Nick Morris busting a gut on a heavy track that he's not ridden before to score points and earn money. So  as he's ridden Birmingham plenty of times do any of you think it made much difference ?

 

I’m sure Bomber is based in Rugby

[szkocjasid]

At the moment you can use a guest at home with +5% added to their ave and a guest away up to their ave.

Simple change would be at home use missing riders ave, away use missing riders ave -5%? It's easier to strengthen up away using "horses for courses".

I have no issues with guests, but feel the biggest issue is team being stronger using guests!

[ruffdiamond]

8 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

I have no issues with guests, but feel the biggest issue is team being stronger using guests!

Well,,, probably stronger than using an injured rider or one that isn't there/double booked? 

Maybe guests only for injured riders, not ones away doing other stuff, even meeting royalty. Maybe have some eligibility on compassionate grounds tho.

[RS50]

Would anyone like a return to the days when, if two equal riders of both teams (say each team number 1) was missing, both teams promoted a number 8 to the team, and adjusted the riding order?

[GiveusaB]

34 minutes ago, RS50 said:

Would anyone like a return to the days when, if two equal riders of both teams (say each team number 1) was missing, both teams promoted a number 8 to the team, and adjusted the riding order?

Not for me...seeing the best possible riders is more value for money imo.

[Bagpuss]

But at least they'd be your own riders and not borrowed from another team. It's daft that a rider could score points as a guest which rules his own club out of Play Offs for example! 

[ch958]

15 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

But at least they'd be your own riders and not borrowed from another team. It's daft that a rider could score points as a guest which rules his own club out of Play Offs for example! 

the question is do they bite the bullet or not re guests, my guess is they don't and it gets kicked down the road (a cul de sac)

[ruffdiamond]

1 hour ago, RS50 said:

Would anyone like a return to the days when, if two equal riders of both teams (say each team number 1) was missing, both teams promoted a number 8 to the team, and adjusted the riding order?

What if only 1 team has a rider missing tho?

[Jaizer]

13 minutes ago, ruffdiamond said:

What if only 1 team has a rider missing tho?

And how do you get teams to agree the rider missing is of equivalent level?

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, Bagpuss said:

But at least they'd be your own riders and not borrowed from another team. It's daft that a rider could score points as a guest which rules his own club out of Play Offs for example! 

The credibility has long gone,I just go to see a decent meeting whoever’s riding.It won’t get sorted out nowadays.

[ruffdiamond]

30 minutes ago, Jaizer said:

And how do you get teams to agree the rider missing is of equivalent level?

Money?

,,, or rock,paper, scissors. 

[enotian]

On 5/20/2022 at 6:55 AM, Bagpuss said:

I really dislike guests but just like penalty shoot outs there isn't a workable alternative unfortunately. 

first goal counts double (in the event of a draw at full or extra time). Rangers would have won or Frankfurt would have needed to score another to win.  Penalties only for nil nil games.  Sorted. [also England would have won Euro 2020 on this basis]

as for speedway it's all become a bit like WWF hasn't it.  they might as well just ensure every match ends 46-44 because that's what everyone wants. I exaggerate.

too many instances of riders missing fixtures because they're here or there or just don't fancy riding a certain track as they don't think they'll score enough to make it worthwhile, to have any workable alternative. Plus the standard of #8's compared to the standard of CL heat leaders wouldn't make much of a spectacle. To the extent there are now guests for reserves!!!

I've wondered in the past if a match points handicap system would be a better alternative to guests.  For example if you have a 6 point rider missing, replace them with a 2 point #8 but add 4 points to the teams match score. R/R in the first instance of course

Depends on what you want to see.  A genuine team sport or matches with the best possible 14 riders available?  Regardless the current lack of riders and the numerous reasons for riders missing matches mean that guests are inevitable. 

 

[Teromaafan]

The number of guests used in the Championship is becoming a farce. They are supposed to be used to cover genuine (yeah, I know not really a word associated with the sport) injuries/absences. The likes of Newcastle and Brum continue to use guests for riders they signed that will never be seen again and almost every guest used makes them stronger due replaced riders on inflated averages that would only fall if they raced. These two teams are therefore stronger than they would be, which means they are not quite as crap as they would otherwise be. Whilst we all want these teams in the sport, this approach is unsustainable and the governing body should intervene. In contrast, Plymouth are milking the system a treat. They have three decent standard heat leaders but are still able to use guests for a number one (on the way down) who is as likely to show up again as Lord Lucan.

Don’t know if this has been suggested before, but is it not reasonable to restrict a rider to a certain number of guest appearances per season? A maximum of 5 maybe?

[ruffdiamond]

4 minutes ago, Teromaafan said:

The number of guests used in the Championship is becoming a farce. They are supposed to be used to cover genuine (yeah, I know not really a word associated with the sport) injuries/absences. The likes of Newcastle and Brum continue to use guests for riders they signed that will never be seen again and almost every guest used makes them stronger due replaced riders on inflated averages that would only fall if they raced. These two teams are therefore stronger than they would be, which means they are not quite as crap as they would otherwise be. Whilst we all want these teams in the sport, this approach is unsustainable and the governing body should intervene. In contrast, Plymouth are milking the system a treat. They have three decent standard heat leaders but are still able to use guests for a number one (on the way down) who is as likely to show up again as Lord Lucan.

Don’t know if this has been suggested before, but is it not reasonable to restrict a rider to a certain number of guest appearances per season? A maximum of 5 maybe?

Who is the governing body?

Edited June 15, 2022 by ruffdiamond