The current state of the SGB CHAMPIONSHIP

[cinderfella]

5 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

In 2018 Godfrey was Vice Chairman, so no he was not in charge and no there was no such protocol of not interfering with each other’s affairs.

Lakeside, as I have pointed out on many occasions, we’re never ever granted Fridays as their PRIMARY race night for just that reason, not enough riders would be available. 
the ‘ MC’ do not call matches off because of lack of guests, that is a club matter.

Otherwise, your not far off.

Isn't ironic that now the PL run on two evenings (dictated by the Poles I'll argue) and fans rarely have consecutive home meetings on the same evening. And some PL teams have had to changed their race days to accommodate the availability of the same riders because of doubling up.

Sorry for the cracked record but it's time British Speedway was run for the benefit of British riders and fans by an independent admin.

[lbw]

@Fortythirtyeight 

With reference to our intellectual exchange yesterday.

The word 'wot' is actually in the dictionary so you had better educate yourself before you comment on my use of the English language! 

Now you do know!

Wot Wot

     

Edited May 13, 2022 by Turnip

[ch958]

1 hour ago, cinderfella said:

Do we need the World's best?

British Speedway already operates without, arguably, without it's current best three riders. 

I've suggested for years that the GP series killed British Speedway. Ask Eastbourne and Arena fans or any of the other teams that had to do without their star riders on GP weekends.

Increase the number of GP rounds to 24 or similar like F1 and the top 15 riders plus a Wild Card can compete solely for the World Crown without league speedway getting in the way of their ambitions.

League speedway can then be for loyal riders and fans.

no we don't need them, we can organise a league structure without them; we have to in reality. I think you're spot on with your comments.

[enotian]

7 hours ago, mikebv said:

And were 2nd Div standard riders not 3rd tier...

The Championship seriously needs to be the stepping stone between Div 1 and 3 with the team strengths spread out accordingly and evenly...

How they do that after many years of running teams made up of the Div 1 HL's I dont know...

Can't charge circa £20 for a lower standard of product can they? And I would imagine they will be loathe to drop the admission price..

And that's the dilemma. Pandora's box was opened and now nobody can close it.

I would say you could reduce the standard of the 2nd tier such that the costs are reduced to make it possible to reduce admission fees and use it as a marketing tool to attract lapsed supporters or retain those struggling in the current climate. The 2nd Tier should be about developing young British riders (who could double up to increase their track time) so they have the experience of leading a team against more experienced riders who only ride in the UK and don't double up. 

But that's your problem.  What happens to the current double up riders? Who subsidises their income if they no longer have 2nd Tier matches? It would seem obvious that they'll ask for more. Can the top tier afford that? I doubt it. So how do you replace the number of matches the current double uppers earn from?

[ruffdiamond]

56 minutes ago, enotian said:

And that's the dilemma. Pandora's box was opened and now nobody can close it.

I would say you could reduce the standard of the 2nd tier such that the costs are reduced to make it possible to reduce admission fees and use it as a marketing tool to attract lapsed supporters or retain those struggling in the current climate. The 2nd Tier should be about developing young British riders (who could double up to increase their track time) so they have the experience of leading a team against more experienced riders who only ride in the UK and don't double up. 

But that's your problem.  What happens to the current double up riders? Who subsidises their income if they no longer have 2nd Tier matches? It would seem obvious that they'll ask for more. Can the top tier afford that? I doubt it. So how do you replace the number of matches the current double uppers earn from?

It's a right old can of worms, isn't it?,,, suppose it takes diversity to the limit,,, you can't do right for doing wrong, and you can't be wrong, cos that's not diverse enough!!!,,, why not just have imaginary goalposts and make it up as it goes? 

[phillipsr]

1 hour ago, enotian said:

And that's the dilemma. Pandora's box was opened and now nobody can close it.

I would say you could reduce the standard of the 2nd tier such that the costs are reduced to make it possible to reduce admission fees and use it as a marketing tool to attract lapsed supporters or retain those struggling in the current climate. The 2nd Tier should be about developing young British riders (who could double up to increase their track time) so they have the experience of leading a team against more experienced riders who only ride in the UK and don't double up. 

But that's your problem.  What happens to the current double up riders? Who subsidises their income if they no longer have 2nd Tier matches? It would seem obvious that they'll ask for more. Can the top tier afford that? I doubt it. So how do you replace the number of matches the current double uppers earn from?

Would the weakening of the CL cause a decline in fans also.. i already pick matches based on who is there and i have no interest in the NL… i dont think i personally would bother with a lower standard and cant imagine im alone. I appreciate everyone cant be catered for just put my thoughts in  

[IainB]

15 hours ago, enotian said:

The 2nd Tier should be about developing young British riders (who could double up to increase their track time) so they have the experience of leading a team against more experienced riders who only ride in the UK and don't double up. 

Spot on! Great Britain Speedway Team has arguably the best junior programme in Speedway, even the envy of Poland apparently and then dumps it's developed riders into a 2nd league flooded with top league talent. The likes of Leon Flint, Tom Brennan, Joe & Dan Thompson, Jack Thomas, Anders Rowe, Drew Kemp, Dan Gilkes, Jordan Jenkins, Jason Edwards & Jordan Palin should be heat leader/ top second string standard in the CL instead they're second string / reserves.

It's really all a bit of a mess at the moment with the Polish restrictions and PL only having a 6 team league and until that changes things are likely to remain the same

Edited May 14, 2022 by iainb

[Falcon1983]

The BSPL wont cease their control over the sport in the UK and they will always seek to look after their own interests first.

The fact they have allegedly turned away interest from Discovery to take over the sport in this country shows so watch in the future Sweden, Denmark, Poland etc pull away even further when a multi billion dollar company invest in those leagues from top to bottom 

[HectorRacing]

Whats happened with adam ellis? Thought he signed for BB

[topsoil]

How we must yearn for the good old days when teams like Scunthorpe and Workington would go to Eastbourne and Rye House and regularly get beat 64-14. Now THAT was entertainment.

[cinderfella]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

 The likes of Leon Flint, Tom Brennan, Joe & Dan Thompson, Jack Thomas, Anders Rowe, Drew Kemp, Dan Gilkes, Jordan Jenkins, Jason Edwards & Jordan Palin should be heat leader/ top second string standard in the CL instead they're second string / reserves.

 

I'm sorry but that really means these riders are the better ones at 2nd level speedway.

If they are as good as that they should be holding their on at PL level too.

Dan Bewley has done it and Tom Brennan is certainly showing he is capable.

I suppose CL heat leaders should be equivalent of PL 2nd strings and CL 2nd strings should be PL reserves and equally the same relationship between CL and NDL.

The only ways to improve are more track time (the only benefit from doubling up IMHO) and racing against the strongest opponents.

 

Problem is PL & CL are basically 90% the same product bar racing on different nights under different names.

[HGould]

22 minutes ago, cinderfella said:

I'm sorry but that really means these riders are the better ones at 2nd level speedway.

If they are as good as that they should be holding their on at PL level too.

Dan Bewley has done it and Tom Brennan is certainly showing he is capable.

I suppose CL heat leaders should be equivalent of PL 2nd strings and CL 2nd strings should be PL reserves and equally the same relationship between CL and NDL.

The only ways to improve are more track time (the only benefit from doubling up IMHO) and racing against the strongest opponents.

 

Problem is PL & CL are basically 90% the same product bar racing on different nights under different names.

Not being deliberately controversial but the elephant in the room is clear.

As long as the older generation; Harris; Nicholls, Cook, Masters, Lawson, King; Morris, Worrals; Wright; Kerr; etc are allowed to double up, many of them that could be affored 5-10 years ago but which cannot be afforded now but which some Clubs have to pay to be competitive then the sink will be continually blocked and the younger riders paths will be lost and wasted.

They will go to Poland and u24 leagues or if not good enough drift away from the Sport.

May be you have hit on something but with a twist.

PL for all CL for British born or Qualified Under 24 with may be one over 24 or foreign rider oNLY allowed 

 

[Sings4Speedway]

20 minutes ago, HGould said:

Not being deliberately controversial but the elephant in the room is clear.

As long as the older generation; Harris; Nicholls, Cook, Masters, Lawson, King; Morris, Worrals; Wright; Kerr; etc are allowed to double up, many of them that could be affored 5-10 years ago but which cannot be afforded now but which some Clubs have to pay to be competitive then the sink will be continually blocked and the younger riders paths will be lost and wasted.

They will go to Poland and u24 leagues or if not good enough drift away from the Sport.

May be you have hit on something but with a twist.

PL for all CL for British born or Qualified Under 24 with may be one over 24 or foreign rider oNLY allowed 

 

Perhaps if the conversation rate actually got to 2.0 as was the plan and highest average applied both ways then the doubling up / down would see a reduction. As ever though the 5 year plans last 5 minutes.

[IainB]

47 minutes ago, cinderfella said:

I'm sorry but that really means these riders are the better ones at 2nd level speedway.

If they are as good as that they should be holding their on at PL level too.

Dan Bewley has done it and Tom Brennan is certainly showing he is capable.

I suppose CL heat leaders should be equivalent of PL 2nd strings and CL 2nd strings should be PL reserves and equally the same relationship between CL and NDL.

The only ways to improve are more track time (the only benefit from doubling up IMHO) and racing against the strongest opponents.

 

Problem is PL & CL are basically 90% the same product bar racing on different nights under different names.

For me, the current cream of the crop Tom Brennan should be averaging 8 or 9 points in the 2nd tier of British speedway currently he's under 7

[Falcon1983]

2 hours ago, iainb said:

Spot on! Great Britain Speedway Team has arguably the best junior programme in Speedway, even the envy of Poland apparently and the dumps it's developed riders into a 2nd league flooded with top league talent. The likes of Leon Flint, Tom Brennan, Joe & Dan Thompson, Jack Thomas, Anders Rowe, Drew Kemp, Dan Gilkes, Jordan Jenkins, Jason Edwards & Jordan Palin should be heat leader/ top second string standard in the CL instead they're second string / reserves.

It's really all a bit of a mess at the moment with the Polish restrictions and PL only having a 6 team league and until that changes things are likely to remain the same

I certainly think the premiership should be weakened to an extent where riders at 6 & 7 are British U24 riders or with minimal experience,  Championship should see their reserves being current NL heat leaders, championship 2nd string current championship reserves and their heat leaders current 2nd strings then maybe one rider who is a current heat leader in the top flight 

For me that sounds like a ladder from bottom to top, sounds more affordable too with the right riders getting the right track time

I'd also love to see the British championship extended to at least 5/7 rounds all held on weekends and do what discovery is doing now

British GP championship

British GP2 Championship

British GP3 Championship 

All run on the same day, same venue, one ticket price and make it more of an "event" 

[geoff100]

1 hour ago, topsoil said:

How we must yearn for the good old days when teams like Scunthorpe and Workington would go to Eastbourne and Rye House and regularly get beat 64-14. Now THAT was entertainment.

Comets were never that bad at eastbourne,in 73 lost a last heat decider,lost the knockout final with a couple of dodgy referee decisions made by an ex eastbourne rider sat next to the promoter,just saying 

[Fromafar]

2 hours ago, iainb said:

Spot on! Great Britain Speedway Team has arguably the best junior programme in Speedway, even the envy of Poland apparently and the dumps it's developed riders into a 2nd league flooded with top league talent. The likes of Leon Flint, Tom Brennan, Joe & Dan Thompson, Jack Thomas, Anders Rowe, Drew Kemp, Dan Gilkes, Jordan Jenkins, Jason Edwards & Jordan Palin should be heat leader/ top second string standard in the CL instead they're second string / reserves.

It's really all a bit of a mess at the moment with the Polish restrictions and PL only having a 6 team league and until that changes things are likely to remain the same

The bottom line is the riders are just not good enough.When you see the young Danes and Aussies making progress in Poland starting from scratch it hits home.It doesn’t matter who you are coming up against in GB  you just have to beat them.!!
The young Brits in the Polish u/24 league look out of their depth .There is a decent set up in Uk though.

[enotian]

12 hours ago, phillipsr said:

Would the weakening of the CL cause a decline in fans also.. i already pick matches based on who is there and i have no interest in the NL… i dont think i personally would bother with a lower standard and cant imagine im alone. I appreciate everyone cant be catered for just put my thoughts in  

it's definitely a risk.  I do think star names will attract more supporters but are there really any riders in the current CL which would generate that interest? Not for me.  Seen them all on many occasions. 

The 2nd tier was always about new riders progressing.  Way back it was young Brits and Antipodeans then in later years Europeans making their way to become World stars. The CL no longer attracts as many young overseas riders so making opportunities for young Brits who might progress to become stars would be an obvious way forward. It happened organically in the 70's and 80's as the entry to the sport was much easier than it is now. Where youngsters are competing with riders on much bigger budgets.  Hopefully SGP4 will help to increase the number of youngsters entering the sport at grass roots.

Provided the cost base reduces, which it should without the double uppers, I think you could have lower crowd levels and still have a sustainable business.  

[Paulco]

53 minutes ago, iainb said:

For me, the current cream of the crop Tom Brennan should be averaging 8 or 9 points in the 2nd tier of British speedway currently he's under 7

Rolling averages dont tell the full story though.  On this seasons meetings he will be much higher than 7 

[cinderfella]

46 minutes ago, iainb said:

For me, the current cream of the crop Tom Brennan should be averaging 8 or 9 points in the 2nd tier of British speedway currently he's under 7

But the averages can be a joke. Eg last season MPT was no 1 in the Panthers' PL averages yet 4th in the CL Bears' averages and again this year he is again top at Panthers but not at Plymouth.

 

The whole average system needs restructured and team building built around  45pts. If they insist heat 15 doesn't count in averages then it shouldn't count in match scores either.

 

I've suggested for years that the team building averages should be the previous year's winning team' final average and that way you get a) teams building up rather than diluting and b) the opporchancity for a team to be kept together with some loyalty as a bonus especially for young fans who have spent their pocket money on memorabilia etc of their favourite riders.