enotian Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 12 minutes ago, Jaizer said: I'm not necessarily meaning world stars there were certainly plenty kids came through at 2nd string/ good reserve level. That Peterborough side for example had Howe, Allen, stead. Lee Richardson and Scott Nichols were breaking through yeah it's a handful compared to what went before it. there'll always be some opportunities for British youngsters by virtue of the low starting average. But with less teams operating and some teams not being able to secure no1's and building strength in depth (even though that's sub optimal) those opportunities are now less and less. There'll always be special talents who are sought after and will achieve regardless. Robert Lambert was probably the last one but they don't come along too often. Others need sustained opportunity to progress. The CL just isn't providing that currently. Don't get me wrong youngsters can't be allowed to have protected team places without progressing but it's fairly easy to say you get 40 CL matches before your average increases regardless of your actual average. So youngsters know exactly what they need to do to retain a team place. I don't think there are any debutants at reserve in the CL this season. How long will any current NL talents continue if they never get the opportunity to progress? It's basically product development. All successful businesses do it but speedway has lost its way in trying to meet the demands of the doubling up riders which has restricted opportunities for youth to progress. They clearly know it's an issue as they wouldn't have announced the rising star system but have had to abandon it after one season because it's unworkable at the current CL level, being full of experienced double uppers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, enotian said: yeah it's a handful compared to what went before it. there'll always be some opportunities for British youngsters by virtue of the low starting average. But with less teams operating and some teams not being able to secure no1's and building strength in depth (even though that's sub optimal) those opportunities are now less and less. There'll always be special talents who are sought after and will achieve regardless. Robert Lambert was probably the last one but they don't come along too often. Others need sustained opportunity to progress. The CL just isn't providing that currently. Don't get me wrong youngsters can't be allowed to have protected team places without progressing but it's fairly easy to say you get 40 CL matches before your average increases regardless of your actual average. So youngsters know exactly what they need to do to retain a team place. I don't think there are any debutants at reserve in the CL this season. How long will any current NL talents continue if they never get the opportunity to progress? It's basically product development. All successful businesses do it but speedway has lost its way in trying to meet the demands of the doubling up riders which has restricted opportunities for youth to progress. They clearly know it's an issue as they wouldn't have announced the rising star system but have had to abandon it after one season because it's unworkable at the current CL level, being full of experienced double uppers. That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzac Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jaizer said: That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship Like we had a few seasons ago that produced Brennen/Palin etc. From the outside seemed to be a concerted effort to lower the standard of the NL from the higher level promotions as it was pretty successful, and they didn't seem to want any encroachment on 'their' leagues. Still at least we have the successful Premiership Junior league..... Edited April 13, 2022 by gazzac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 15 minutes ago, gazzac said: Like we had a few seasons ago that produced Brennen/Palin etc. From the outside seemed to be a concerted effort to lower the standard of the NL from the higher level promotions as it was pretty successful, and they didn't seem to want any encroachment on 'their' leagues. Still at least we have the successful Premiership Junior league..... Exactly, should really have Newcastle maybe Birmingham in NL this year. Eastbourne and Workington next you'd have great base to work from there 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Jaizer said: That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship how you going to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, enotian said: how you going to do that? See above. Return it to competitive league with stand alone teams not reserve sides from prem and champ. Allow them to use British riders with champ averages under 4 or 5 with no age limit, allow some experienced guys in like used to with Armstrong, Atkin etc. Not a blueprint but it's a start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 4 hours ago, Jaizer said: That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship Should both weaken the Champ & strengthen the NL to close the gap imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, szkocjasid said: Should both weaken the Champ & strengthen the NL to close the gap imo Then you'll just have same complaints there are now between prem and champ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Jaizer said: See above. Return it to competitive league with stand alone teams not reserve sides from prem and champ. Allow them to use British riders with champ averages under 4 or 5 with no age limit, allow some experienced guys in like used to with Armstrong, Atkin etc. Not a blueprint but it's a start Where are these stand alone clubs coming from? Is there Mildenhall and Kent presently. Possibly IoW if they forgive BSPL. Potentially Workington although they might have loftier ambitions. There's only enough clubs at present for two leagues of any integrity. Newcastle should clearly drop into the NL but there just aren't enough fixtures and that's with reserve teams. I agree the young riders need to face and learn from more experienced riders which is why the standard of the 2nd division should become a sustainable hybrid of the CL and NL with current CL 2nd strings become No1's. Those CL clubs who don't want to reduce the standard can join the PL. They employ many PL riders already anyway. Having a sustainable 2nd division would potentially allow more new entrant promotions and teams to allow the sport to grow. At the moment it's starving itself of oxygen by forcing promoters to spend beyond their means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, enotian said: Where are these stand alone clubs coming from? Is there Mildenhall and Kent presently. Possibly IoW if they forgive BSPL. Potentially Workington although they might have loftier ambitions. There's only enough clubs at present for two leagues of any integrity. Newcastle should clearly drop into the NL but there just aren't enough fixtures and that's with reserve teams. I agree the young riders need to face and learn from more experienced riders which is why the standard of the 2nd division should become a sustainable hybrid of the CL and NL with current CL 2nd strings become No1's. Those CL clubs who don't want to reduce the standard can join the PL. They employ many PL riders already anyway. Having a sustainable 2nd division would potentially allow more new entrant promotions and teams to allow the sport to grow. At the moment it's starving itself of oxygen by forcing promoters to spend beyond their means. Going to have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid. In any sport going from amateur to professional has to be a big jump, and if you can't make it then NDL is your level. The NDL as was 4 years ago was it's best level. Revert back to that would be my suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 28 minutes ago, Jaizer said: Going to have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid. In any sport going from amateur to professional has to be a big jump, and if you can't make it then NDL is your level. The NDL as was 4 years ago was it's best level. Revert back to that would be my suggestion with what teams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, enotian said: with what teams? As I've said earlier, Birmingham and Newcastle imo should be in it. Eastbourne and Workington next season. IOW should have been busting a gut to get back in. That gives you 7, add 1 or 2 reserve sides then you have a proper league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 43 minutes ago, Jaizer said: As I've said earlier, Birmingham and Newcastle imo should be in it. Eastbourne and Workington next season. IOW should have been busting a gut to get back in. That gives you 7, add 1 or 2 reserve sides then you have a proper league Not enough fixtures for Newcastle and I suspect Birmingham and Newcastle would struggle to attract fans for a perceived 3rd tier league. Is why they binned the Gems last season even though the Diamonds were hopeless. Plus you've reduced the CL to nine teams. It all becomes rather pointless. Realistically I don't think Scunthorpe can compete at CL level, unsure on Berwick (under the limit) . Don't think Redcar or Edinburgh or Plymouth have mega rich owners but seem to be well run clubs and would probably welcome some cost control. Especially if rising inflation means you either increase ticket prices and loose even more supporters or retain prices and loose money. All the evidence is out there. You can ignore it as the promoters seem to be doing or you can do something about it and build a structure that produces a value for money product which doesn't rely on wealthy individuals subsidising it. There's just not that many of them about. As I've posted elsewhere it's not even that big a thrill to win. Most of the remaining supporters would pop a hip out if they celebrated too much. It needs a sustainable structure with affordable pricing to attract a younger audience. Younger riders could play a massive part in that with their use of social media. The base product can still be thrilling if it's competitive and the race track is conducive to great racing but too many times it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 13, 2022 Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 minute ago, enotian said: Not enough fixtures for Newcastle and I suspect Birmingham and Newcastle would struggle to attract fans for a perceived 3rd tier league. Is why they binned the Gems last season even though the Diamonds were hopeless. Plus you've reduced the CL to nine teams. It all becomes rather pointless. Realistically I don't think Scunthorpe can compete at CL level, unsure on Berwick (under the limit) . Don't think Redcar or Edinburgh or Plymouth have mega rich owners but seem to be well run clubs and would probably welcome some cost control. Especially if rising inflation means you either increase ticket prices and loose even more supporters or retain prices and loose money. All the evidence is out there. You can ignore it as the promoters seem to be doing or you can do something about it and build a structure that produces a value for money product which doesn't rely on wealthy individuals subsidising it. There's just not that many of them about. As I've posted elsewhere it's not even that big a thrill to win. Most of the remaining supporters would pop a hip out if they celebrated too much. It needs a sustainable structure with affordable pricing to attract a younger audience. Younger riders could play a massive part in that with their use of social media. The base product can still be thrilling if it's competitive and the race track is conducive to great racing but too many times it isn't. You've got your views I've got mine. We've discussed them fairly and with respect how it should be 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.D Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 14 hours ago, Jaizer said: As I've said earlier, Birmingham and Newcastle imo should be in it. Eastbourne and Workington next season. IOW should have been busting a gut to get back in. That gives you 7, add 1 or 2 reserve sides then you have a proper league It's extremely doubtful Eastbourne will be looking to run third tier speedway next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzac Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 1 hour ago, M.D said: It's extremely doubtful Eastbourne will be looking to run third tier speedway next season. I think generally it was if the NL was as it was in 2018, that level was good and sustainable and helped by Eastie being successful. At current levels as you say think it doughtful one would hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted April 14, 2022 Report Share Posted April 14, 2022 1 hour ago, M.D said: It's extremely doubtful Eastbourne will be looking to run third tier speedway next season. Not at the level it is now no, that's what I'm saying if was anyway decent then maybe they would as seemed popular before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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