Leicester v Newcastle 9/4/22

[geoff100]

Lets be honest if the sport had a few more ben barkers ,chris harris, and a lot less gating tarts people might turn up to watch each week !

[IainB]

2 hours ago, geoff100 said:

Lets be honest if the sport had a few more ben barkers ,chris harris, and a lot less gating tarts people might turn up to watch each week !

Tell that to the promotion at Belle Vue, they've got the best track in the world, consistently produces top class speedway racing and yet can't get anywhere close to filling their stadium for a league match with a catchment area of around 2.7 million people

Edited April 11, 2022 by iainb

[topaz325]

3 minutes ago, iainb said:

Tell that to the promotion at Belle Vue, they've got the best track in the world, consistently produces top class speedway racing and yet can't anywhere close to filling their stadium for a league match with a catchment area of around 2.7 million people

They can when run on the right day at the right time with a good field of riders.

[Col]

26 minutes ago, iainb said:

Tell that to the promotion at Belle Vue, they've got the best track in the world, consistently produces top class speedway racing and yet can't anywhere close to filling their stadium for a league match with a catchment area of around 2.7 million people

I take it there are 2.7 million people in Greater Manchester and that is what you refer to?  As the only North West Speedway team, I would suggest the catchment area is much bigger!  I have an Ace's season ticket and live 70 miles away.

[IainB]

4 minutes ago, Col said:

I take it there are 2.7 million people in Greater Manchester and that is what you refer to?  As the only North West Speedway team, I would suggest the catchment area is much bigger!  I have an Ace's season ticket and live 70 miles away.

I get up there whenever I can, bank holidays etc or "special" meetings

[ruffdiamond]

1 hour ago, geoff100 said:

Lets be honest if the sport had a few more ben barkers ,chris harris, and a lot less gating tarts people might turn up to watch each week !

Gotta agree, far too much emphasis on the start!,,, 2 minute timer, green light, go. If the tapes aren't touched and, someone isn't ready, tough. The early bird and that.

[szkocjasid]

2 hours ago, Jaizer said:

What's the incentive for riders to improve beyond an 8 point average? What you'll have in that situation is average manipulation by riders as the ones who are close to the 8 know they'll be out a job the next season. I don't think it solves anything tbh, as powers that be must think too as scrapped it in prem

Very true an 8.01 rider could end up being picked by the weakest club for the lowest wages, as it's them or no team. Then a 7.99 rider can ask for a kings ransom as he's so valuable to any team!

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, szkocjasid said:

Very true an 8.01 rider could end up being picked by the weakest club for the lowest wages, as it's them or no team. Then a 7.99 rider can ask for a kings ransom as he's so valuable to any team!

Put the top 3 in each team as a collective, rather than any individual figure..

Then the riders who run 9 or 10 point averages can still get places, and be probably the most important signing the ciub makes given their status..

There will be those I am sure though who think "tough", and that some clubs will just have to make do with what they have..

And if any of the titles in UK League Speedway carried any great kudos, or financial return, I would 100% agree..

But sadly due to the way the sport is operated, they dont, so the thing that sells the sport the most is the entertainment value on offer, or at least a close meeting score wise..

Having such disparate difference from top to bottom does no one any favours from a business perspective..

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by mikebv

[enotian]

12 hours ago, Jaizer said:

What's the incentive for riders to improve beyond an 8 point average? What you'll have in that situation is average manipulation by riders as the ones who are close to the 8 know they'll be out a job the next season. I don't think it solves anything tbh, as powers that be must think too as scrapped it in prem

money.  The more points you score the more you earn.  Decent incentive I'd say.  Then at the end of the season you get to reset the limit for next season based on the expected available riders and what average they're on and how many teams are in the league so it would be complete folly for riders to 2nd guess next years rules. It's not complicated.

They stopped it in the Premiership because there were no top line riders left. And to be honest the fact the the promoters stopped doing it is probably arguing in favour adopting it given their track record for decision making. 

Look at any successful business and the focus is on the product. If you think Glasgow vs Newcastle this coming Friday is a great product and advert for speedway fair play to you. But based on falling attendances everywhere it would suggest not many agree. Soon there'll be a 6 team Championship which, like the Premiership will improve the product but it hardly screams major sport.

[Jaizer]

1 minute ago, enotian said:

money.  The more points you score the more you earn.  Decent incentive I'd say.  Then at the end of the season you get to reset the limit for next season based on the expected available riders and what average they're on and how many teams are in the league so it would be complete folly for riders to 2nd guess next years rules. It's not complicated.

They stopped it in the Premiership because there were no top line riders left. And to be honest the fact the the promoters stopped doing it is probably arguing in favour adopting it given their track record for decision making. 

Look at any successful business and the focus is on the product. If you think Glasgow vs Newcastle this coming Friday is a great product and advert for speedway fair play to you. But based on falling attendances everywhere it would suggest not many agree. Soon there'll be a 6 team Championship which, like the Premiership will improve the product but it hardly screams major sport.

Newcastle at ashfield last season was very entertaining actually, hence hope Barker guesting for diamonds.

It doesn't matter what you do you'll always have weak teams. Believe me Glasgow were that weak team often despite one of the best no.1s the division has ever seen in Lawson and Parker!!!

[ruffdiamond]

If the world gets rid of 'cash',,, its likely to get rid of much underhand skullduggery too. 

[enotian]

25 minutes ago, Jaizer said:

Newcastle at ashfield last season was very entertaining actually, hence hope Barker guesting for diamonds.

It doesn't matter what you do you'll always have weak teams. Believe me Glasgow were that weak team often despite one of the best no.1s the division has ever seen in Lawson and Parker!!!

yeah and how did that work out for them???  Same owners turn it around?  Or saved by wealthy owners?  Not intended as a pop at Glasgow.  They've turned the clubs fortunes around and it would be great if others could do the same but there just aren't that many potential owners able to risk making a loss. 

There will always be  team at the top and a team at the bottom but if the team at the bottom has no chance why would you pay to watch? I recall Glasgow rocking up at Newcastle with Martin McKinna as 2nd heat leader and thinking there's only 4 heats worth watching here, the ones with Lawson in. Indeed they eventually folded and by the time they became Workington they only lasted weeks before being expelled for fielding too weak a side.  It's just not good for business.

The fact that you hope the Diamonds strengthen up by including Ben Barker tells me everything I need to know.  Without him last season the Diamonds wouldn't have hit 25. Starke might do something similar on Friday and Complin might take a liking to the track but we're talking all 7 Diamonds over performing to get anywhere near 35. The thrill of it.

Edited April 11, 2022 by enotian

[Jaizer]

4 minutes ago, enotian said:

yeah and how did that work out for them???  Same owners turn it around?  Or saved by wealthy owners?  Not intended as a pop at Glasgow.  They've turned the clubs fortunes around and it would be great if others could do the same but there just aren't that many potential owners able to risk making a loss. 

There will always be  team at the top and a team at the bottom but if the team at the bottom has now chance why would you paid to watch? I recall Glasgow rocking up at Newcastle with Martin McKinna as 2nd heat leader and thinking there's only 4 heats worth watching here, the ones with Lawson in. Indeed they eventually folded and by the time they became Workington they only lasted weeks before being expelled for fielding too weak a side.  It's just not good for business.

The fact that you hope the Diamonds strengthen up by including Ben Barker tells me everything I need to know.  Without him last season the Diamonds wouldn't have hit 25. Starke might do something similar on Friday and Complin might take a liking to the track but we're talking all 7 Diamonds over performing to get anywhere near 35. The thrill of it.

Yeah Dickson and dick won the 2012 title. Which actually did more damage than any of the weak seasons before due to what had to layout in wages every week. See Workington as another to fall that way.

I know where you're coming from but bringing in limits like that imo won't change anything.

Dear god, Martin mckinna was barely a reserve

Edited April 11, 2022 by Jaizer
.

[enotian]

Just now, Jaizer said:

Yeah Dickson and dick won the 2012 title. Which actually did more damage than any of the weak seasons before due to what had to layout in wages every week. See Workington as another to fall that way.

I know where you're coming from but bringing in limits like that imo won't change anything.

it clearly will.  the heat format massively favours teams with at least two no1 riders. It's why Glasgow don't win the title because they don't back up Cook with another big hitter. They go for riders on a perceived low average. Basso/Brennan might hit no1 level this season and the strategy might work.

In the current format the top two have an extra ride each and heat 13 and 15 potentially gives you an 8 point advantage. Heat 2 and 8 just don't offset because even if you build strength in depth by definition those lower averaged riders are not guaranteed to always deliver 8 points from those heats.

If you're Poole and you have 3 no1's capable of beating all of the opposition there are only 3 heats in which one or more of them don't appear. i.e. only 3 heats the opposition can realistically get a heat advantage. Even then if your top three has scored 41 between them and the others are guaranteed 3 points they only need another 2 points to win. Clearly speedway matches aren't won on paper but the winning strategy is obvious. It's why Poole follow the strategy and are successful. They know what they're doing. Well played and within the rules but if it's detrimental to the product because there aren't enough heatleaders to go around or some of the teams can't afford them then you end up with less teams to defeat. 

[ruffdiamond]

Even if speedway became really popular, would it be able to cope with VAR, Hawkeye and Virtual safety flags?

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, Jaizer said:

Newcastle at ashfield last season was very entertaining actually, hence hope Barker guesting for diamonds.

It doesn't matter what you do you'll always have weak teams. Believe me Glasgow were that weak team often despite one of the best no.1s the division has ever seen in Lawson and Parker!!!

It shouldn't need anyone guesting to make a meeting entertaining...

If that was the case then why not have every meeting with 14 blank spaces in the programme and track specialists get selected to represent each team..?

Mickey Mouse rules kill the sport, so using its biggest one just to provide entertainment can never be good...

Other sports with no promotion and relegation have minimum standards to adhere to, as they know that collectively the "brand" suffers if they have significantly disparate levels between top and bottom.

However these sports have money behind them so being bottom doesnt mean a risk to survival..

UK Speedway doesnt have that luxury so needs the team/teams at the bottom to at least have a fighting chance..

[StevePark]

13 hours ago, enotian said:

but we're talking all 7 Diamonds over performing to get anywhere near 35. The thrill of it.

I will be delighted (ecstatic even) if we reach 35.  It's a bit like when we used to go to Sheffield and celebrate scoring 30. 

Whoever rides at number 1 (providing we don't go with R/R) will improve things, obviously, but by how much remains to be seen.  Anyway this is the Leicester v Newcastle thread, so best keep the Glasgow v Newcastle things to that thread.

Edited April 12, 2022 by StevePark

[Weeyin]

1 hour ago, StevePark said:

I will be delighted (ecstatic even) if we reach 35.  It's a bit like when we used to go to Sheffield and celebrate scoring 30. 

Whoever rides at number 1 (providing we don't go with R/R) will improve things, obviously, but by how much remains to be seen.  Anyway this is the Leicester v Newcastle thread, so best keep the Glasgow v Newcastle things to that thread.

I rember going to lots of away matches with Glasgow over the years and we celebrated if we got 30

[IronScorpion]

If teams are made up to 42 points & one team has 3 x 9pt riders then it also has 4 x 4pt riders. Another team has no "big hitters" but 7 x 6pt riders. It is then up to the team of 6pt riders to beat their opposing lower riders keeping the score tight. If a teams 4pt riders "step up" & the other teams 6pt riders struggle then you end up with the 60-30 score line but on paper, both teams were equal before the meeting.

[Hamish McRaker]

There is an easy solution to this, which is to allow teams to opt for declaring a permanent, season-long guest rider for any team position. The club would have to set the average for this team position to apply for the entire season, and would be permitted to use the services of any rider, at any time, who has an average lower than that figure. 

This would allow flexibility to meet different circumstances, especially if the facility were used for the team's "number one" position. For example if the priority is to keep costs down for a particular match, put an NDL level rider in, whereas for a match it is important to win, and a large crowd is needed, bring in Richard Lawson or even Tai Woffinden.

I think this has to be the way forward and will help clubs whose finances are tighter, to be flexible but also use opportunities to generate additional income where possible