M.D Posted March 5, 2022 Report Share Posted March 5, 2022 2 hours ago, mikebv said: Every league could have the same... If every rider was listed on here and you had to grade them one to seven, and put ten riders in each grade, I am 100% sure that the vast majority on here would agree on around 90% of the riders with the other 10% being a close call within two grades... Therefore, why not do the same when compiling the teams? One rider from each grade per team... Still use rider's averages, and keep a mean average maximum team points total to ensure no team can pick the best riders from each grade.., Or even more simplistic, have an overall team limit but a limit on the top 2 or 3 riders within the overall limit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 5, 2022 Report Share Posted March 5, 2022 42 minutes ago, M.D said: Or even more simplistic, have an overall team limit but a limit on the top 2 or 3 riders within the overall limit. It isnt too difficult to share around the rider talent pool is it...? Which is far more important to the survival/development of the sport than any single team winning any of the trophies on offer.. Lose a team and 600 to 800 fans minimum a week are gone... Where as a trophy winning team wont get anything like that in increased admission numbers... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted March 5, 2022 Report Share Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, mikebv said: It isnt too difficult to share around the rider talent pool is it...? Which is far more important to the survival/development of the sport than any single team winning any of the trophies on offer.. Lose a team and 600 to 800 fans minimum a week are gone... Where as a trophy winning team wont get anything like that in increased admission numbers... I'd be hard pushed to name many league winners in the last 5 years across all 3 leagues, its just not that important and in one case it cost the club its existence. You can watch a crap football match and be happy with a 1-0 win = speedway has to be entertaining, results second. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted March 5, 2022 Report Share Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, mikebv said: It isnt too difficult to share around the rider talent pool is it...? Which is far more important to the survival/development of the sport than any single team winning any of the trophies on offer.. Lose a team and 600 to 800 fans minimum a week are gone... Where as a trophy winning team wont get anything like that in increased admission numbers... Must admit I'm not a fan of multiple team building restrictions (I used to enjoy teams with different make ups facing off) BUT there's two good reasons for having them at present: 1. The heat format is biased towards a strong top two. Heats 13 & 15 trump Heat 2. And if you have a strong top 3 (i.e. 3 averaging over 8) there's only three heats you don't have a No1 standard rider in. Take Diamonds vs Pirates this season. King, Lawson and Worrall should go through the card. That's 41 points so they only need 4 points from the other 4 riders for the draw and they're basically guaranteed 3 of those points even if they concede 5-1's in heats 2, 8 and 12/14. Of course nothing is ever guaranteed but you can see that the odds are stacked and it all becomes a bit predictable. 2. If you restrict each team to one rider with an average over 8 you generate more supply than demand and therefore the less wealthy teams can afford to track a genuine No1 standard rider. A quick check of the 2021 CL rolling GSA's and there were 12 riders over 8.00 who are riding in 2022. Would have been easy to spread them about. Some might decide to sit out the CL but even if a team couldn't secure an 8+ No1 at least they wouldn't be facing teams with three of them. The nature of sport has to be fuelled by the desire to win but not at the expense of the product. Otherwise what's the point of winning something nobody is interested in? I guess the answer is Ego. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 5, 2022 Report Share Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, enotian said: Must admit I'm not a fan of multiple team building restrictions (I used to enjoy teams with different make ups facing off) BUT there's two good reasons for having them at present: 1. The heat format is biased towards a strong top two. Heats 13 & 15 trump Heat 2. And if you have a strong top 3 (i.e. 3 averaging over 8) there's only three heats you don't have a No1 standard rider in. Take Diamonds vs Pirates this season. King, Lawson and Worrall should go through the card. That's 41 points so they only need 4 points from the other 4 riders for the draw and they're basically guaranteed 3 of those points even if they concede 5-1's in heats 2, 8 and 12/14. Of course nothing is ever guaranteed but you can see that the odds are stacked and it all becomes a bit predictable. 2. If you restrict each team to one rider with an average over 8 you generate more supply than demand and therefore the less wealthy teams can afford to track a genuine No1 standard rider. A quick check of the 2021 CL rolling GSA's and there were 12 riders over 8.00 who are riding in 2022. Would have been easy to spread them about. Some might decide to sit out the CL but even if a team couldn't secure an 8+ No1 at least they wouldn't be facing teams with three of them. The nature of sport has to be fuelled by the desire to win but not at the expense of the product. Otherwise what's the point of winning something nobody is interested in? I guess the answer is Ego. Years of manipulation in trying to out do another team has driven many a fan away... As has the adhoc Mickey Mouse teams put together using ridiculous rules... And all to try and win something that such manipulative behaviour and self inflicted nonsense, renders any trophy of no real value.. You could say "you couldn't make it up"... However UK Speedway actually have... Absolute crackers that some teams will come to the tapes with little chance of being competitive given the tiny size of the sport, and it's ever decreasing numbers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted March 6, 2022 Report Share Posted March 6, 2022 17 hours ago, ch958 said: I'd be hard pushed to name many league winners in the last 5 years across all 3 leagues, its just not that important and in one case it cost the club its existence. You can watch a crap football match and be happy with a 1-0 win = speedway has to be entertaining, results second. Not really .... You could have the greatest track of all time and be as entertaining as you like but if lose the crowds will drop ...Results will always nearly come first 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 6, 2022 Report Share Posted March 6, 2022 3 hours ago, orion said: Not really .... You could have the greatest track of all time and be as entertaining as you like but if lose the crowds will drop ...Results will always nearly come first HOME results certainly... Luckily, there does seem to be a fairly large percentage of fans who attend Speedway that are not too bothered about the result but just enjoy the racing.. Hopefully they will stay on board regardless of any teams' competitive level.. Seems daft though to not align each time better considering no promotion or relegation exists, as that alone would increase the entertainment level and keep more people interested... As we know, using averages alone, given their subjectivity, won't do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted March 6, 2022 Report Share Posted March 6, 2022 7 hours ago, orion said: Not really .... You could have the greatest track of all time and be as entertaining as you like but if lose the crowds will drop ...Results will always nearly come first Are todays audience really that one dimensional? The trend for crowd levels would suggest not. Successful teams will certainly attract more through the turnstiles but turning up to watch a guaranteed home win sounds a bit dull. Especially if you're poor away from home and not challenging for honours. Certainly if you're losing at home week after week without being competitive that's a massive turn off but I think the public realise that in a sporting contest there has to be winners and losers but it's the jeopardy that makes it interesting. I think most people are satisfied if their team has performed well and they have been entertained. Which should be exactly what you enable if you have fairly prepared tracks and evenly balanced teams. This is even more important if you're looking to attract streaming income from neutrals. As it stands would you pay to see Poole and home to Newcastle? I'm a Diamonds fan but wouldn't pay to see a guaranteed massive home win in a match of little or no entertainment and zero jeopardy. This win at home at all costs attitude is part of the problem. They even got rid of the 2 points for a close home win "because it felt like a loss". No it added jeopardy and excitement right up to the final heat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted March 6, 2022 Report Share Posted March 6, 2022 On 3/4/2022 at 3:45 PM, bruno said: Sorry to be a doom monger but even if just 4 if these tracks open up which is a strong possibility that needs another 28 riders from somewhere . Even with doubling down don't think there's enough out there Exactly the point I've been making for years. Just had a look at the BSPA Rolling Averages to see who's ridden in the UK recently. Deducting those that I know have retired now, (Schlein, Pedersen, Crump etc) and removing duplicate entries, there are now 137 riders featured, including NDL riders. Doing the maths, that's only enough to populate 19.5 teams, or 19 teams and 4 riders spare in case of injuries. And yet there are currently 25 teams in existence, meaning that doubling up is inevitable. And some people seriously want to expand that even as far as 30 teams? Seriously??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 6, 2022 Report Share Posted March 6, 2022 18 minutes ago, uk_martin said: Exactly the point I've been making for years. Just had a look at the BSPA Rolling Averages to see who's ridden in the UK recently. Deducting those that I know have retired now, (Schlein, Pedersen, Crump etc) and removing duplicate entries, there are now 137 riders featured, including NDL riders. Doing the maths, that's only enough to populate 19.5 teams, or 19 teams and 4 riders spare in case of injuries. And yet there are currently 25 teams in existence, meaning that doubling up is inevitable. And some people seriously want to expand that even as far as 30 teams? Seriously??? And heaven forbid they reduce the amount of riders per team to create "subs on the bench".. Or put clear standard demarcation between the leagues to create aspirational growth, and keep interest in the leagues through relegation and promotion.. The current way is the "only way" now given so many riders need two jobs as a minimum, and that they will have got used to the income over the past years of minimally restricted DU'ing... And even more so it will be "the only way" given Div 2 promoters can use Div 1 level talent each week without the pressure of ever having to ride in the top league, with the extra costs that this brings... If it ain't broken why fix it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted March 7, 2022 Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, mikebv said: minimally restricted DU'ing... Minimally??? I don't think there were many more than half a dozen riders in the PL last year that didn't double down with the CL. Some teams were completely made up of double-downers. How is that "minimally"? Edited March 7, 2022 by uk_martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 7, 2022 Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 13 minutes ago, uk_martin said: Minimally??? I don't think there were many more than half a dozen riders in the PL last year that didn't double down with the CL. Some teams were completely made up of double-downers. How is that "minimally"? Wasnt it just over 8 point averages not allowed to DU? ie Minimum restrictions.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon1983 Posted March 7, 2022 Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 If you get a few teams back in 23 then you weaken both the prem and championship and just have two leagues The prem should become what the championship is now ans the championship should be something between what it is now and the National league 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted March 7, 2022 Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 There are already too many teams... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud panther Posted March 7, 2022 Report Share Posted March 7, 2022 16 minutes ago, frigbo said: There are already too many teams... Surely there can't be too many teams. We just need to set the standard of riders to what the teams can afford to pay them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, proud panther said: Surely there can't be too many teams. We just need to set the standard of riders to what the teams can afford to pay them. 3 Leagues, six man teams, or maybe five if needed to provide excess riders for replacements.. Div One - Fully Pro.. Div Two - Semi Pro.. Div Three - Old Heads/New Riders/Paid expenses to cover running costs.. Clear demarcation within the leagues to drive aspirational growth and ambition.. Guests allowed (if needed), but not within same league, only up or down leagues.. As a rough rule of thumb. Fanbase 1000+ = Div 1 Fanbase 600 - 1000 = Div 2 Fanbase <600 = Div 3 With the number of teams per league set structurely according to income based on fanbase/sponsorship.. No cherry picking what league you want to ride in so you can use riders which are "too good" for that level... And start delivering leagues that actually mean something to win, and encourage growth and development for both riders and teams, and, ultimately, the sport itself.. Edited March 8, 2022 by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 5 hours ago, mikebv said: Div One - Fully Pro.. Div Two - Semi Pro.. Div Three - Old Heads/New Riders/Paid expenses to cover running costs.. Clear demarcation within the leagues So where would the likes of Jason Crump, Bjarne Pedersen and Rory Schlein fit in? You don't get older heads than them. Imagine what their running costs would be. Anyone capable of fiddling an expenses claim would have a field day. 5 hours ago, mikebv said: Fanbase 1000+ = Div 1 Fanbase 600 - 1000 = Div 2 Fanbase <600 = Div 3 Fanbase or attendance? Fanbase is vanity, attendance is sanity. So who has more than 1,000 people coming through the gate every week? You're going to end up with one hell of a huge Div 3 and a tiny Div 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 I think what has been suggested is radical and workable. It might not be perfect as a plan but we can't go on like this. Its easy to chip away at posts like this, but how about coming up with a better solution instead of why this may not work. Not so easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbuck Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 Going back on topic, if speedway is to come back to Bradford, I'd suggest that the stadium owned by Bradford (Park Avenue) Football Club could be a much better option than Odsal. Bradford PA are amongst the strugglers in the National League and their attendances are quite low, so they would probably welcome additional income from the speedway. Photographs of the stadium show it to be small, but quite modern, and there is already an athletics track surrounding the football pitch. That's about the limit of my knowledge of the venue, but perhaps someone living in that neck of the woods could give a better opinion? I think personally, that it would be very difficult to get an atmosphere in a stadium as big and sprawling as Odsal, so perhaps the football club could be a better proposition? (I'm told also, that former Bradford Speedway promoter Allan Ham is now one of the football club's directors!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 8, 2022 Report Share Posted March 8, 2022 3 hours ago, uk_martin said: So where would the likes of Jason Crump, Bjarne Pedersen and Rory Schlein fit in? You don't get older heads than them. Imagine what their running costs would be. Anyone capable of fiddling an expenses claim would have a field day. Fanbase or attendance? Fanbase is vanity, attendance is sanity. So who has more than 1,000 people coming through the gate every week? You're going to end up with one hell of a huge Div 3 and a tiny Div 1 Old heads would be those like Tony Atkin who still slide a bike... The riders you mention would be Div One or Two.. And if Div 3 is the most viable for the most teams then that would be absolutely fine... As water finds it level so should UK Speedway... Then build from there... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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