Should Laguta and Emil be kicked out of the GP Series?

[therefused]

2 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

whilst determining whether Emil and Artem should or should not ride in the GPs, this morning's tv news has just shown a 40-mile long column of Russian tanks, armored vehicles, supply trucks just 20 miles north of Kyiv........ in the next few days there could be absolute destruction and mass killings by Russian troops. Any thought going towards those people in Kyiv and the surrounding area?.  It is ok I suppose, give it 5 years, and Putin and his gang will stand before a court in the Hague, that will make it ok.       

Enjoy your discussion.

Are Emil and Laguta in said tanks?

[Humphrey Appleby]

3 hours ago, Triple.H. said:

But they have 2 passports, maybe more. So they can pick and choose their nationality on a whim

Yes, that's the way it works. People should be able to do that if they links to more than one country. 

[Humphrey Appleby]

6 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

whilst determining whether Emil and Artem should or should not ride in the GPs, this morning's tv news has just shown a 40-mile long column of Russian tanks, armored vehicles, supply trucks just 20 miles north of Kyiv........ in the next few days there could be absolute destruction and mass killings by Russian troops. Any thought going towards those people in Kyiv and the surrounding area?.  It is ok I suppose, give it 5 years, and Putin and his gang will stand before a court in the Hague, that will make it ok.       .

I don't know what that has to do with Russians resident in other countries being allowed to continue to work. I'm fully aware it's an appalling situation - not least because I was talking to some people in Ukraine most of last night - but that's not the fault of every Russian. 

All the Russians I know, including my office mate who's lived in the Netherlands for over 20 years, are appalled by the behaviour of Putin. Why should they be denied work or even worse expelled from the countries they may have lived in for many years, unless they're somehow connected to Putin regime?

Let's not start any torchlight pogroms which will just play into Putin's victimhood complex and give him an excuse to invade countries on the grounds of 'protecting Russians'. We should never repeat the appalling treatment of Japanese-Americans, Japanese-Canadians, or German Jews who'd sought refuge in the UK during WW2 and had every reason to support the Allied effort. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby

[Star Lady]

25 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Yes, that's the way it works. People should be able to do that if they links to more than one country. 

That’s not a choice open to many Ukrainians 

[topaz325]

5 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

whilst determining whether Emil and Artem should or should not ride in the GPs, this morning's tv news has just shown a 40-mile long column of Russian tanks, armored vehicles, supply trucks just 20 miles north of Kyiv........ in the next few days there could be absolute destruction and mass killings by Russian troops. Any thought going towards those people in Kyiv and the surrounding area?.  It is ok I suppose, give it 5 years, and Putin and his gang will stand before a court in the Hague, that will make it ok.       

Enjoy your discussion.

Yes we all read the news, unfortunately not a lot to be done from where i,m sitting, i went to a vigil and donated to the Red cross appeal. 

[Triple.H.]

2 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Yes, that's the way it works. People should be able to do that if they links to more than one country. 

I still stand by my original post. They have Russian passports, were born in Russia and represent Russia in international competition, even though they moan they get minimal funding. 

Their Polish passports and citizenship is to make it easier for them to ride in Poland

They're Russian and so like numerous other Russian teams and sports people they should be banned from competing unless in a domestic Russian competition.

 

[Humphrey Appleby]

49 minutes ago, Triple.H. said:

They're Russian and so like numerous other Russian teams and sports people they should be banned from competing unless in a domestic Russian competition.

And I like I said, are you going to be banning every expat Russian from working, even though most have nothing to do with Putin's regime?

We're not talking about Russian teams or riders officially representing Russia - we all agree they should be banned. It's about individuals being allowed to work and earn a living, even if that's riding in the SGP. 

[Hackett]

Ban them ... !!!!

Follow the precedent set by a number of other sports. Economic + social pressures are being used to try and stop Putin - rather than military ; so however small an impression this will make on the scheme of things It needs still to be done. Ban them. 

[OveFundinFan]

1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

And I like I said, are you going to be banning every expat Russian from working, even though most have nothing to do with Putin's regime?

We're not talking about Russian teams or riders officially representing Russia - we all agree they should be banned. It's about individuals being allowed to work and earn a living, even if that's riding in the SGP. 

There is just one small thing the Ukrainians would like….. to be able to live, and live in peace. Putin wants to get at the US and NATO and he is killing innocent men, women, children in doing so. He has immense pride in Russia being the greatest, Russia has no1 and no3 in the world, deny him the things that he loves. 

[Grachan]

There are a lot of tennis tournaments going on at the moment and it's interesting to see some of the developments.

Ukranian player Elina Svitolina pulled out of the Monterrey Open. She was drawn to play a Russian player and said she will not play any Russian or Belarusian unless they played as stateless.

The organisers agreed that her opponent, Anastasia Potapova, will play as a neutral player and representing no country.

Svitolina has been very outspoken on this. If this solution is good enough for her then it should be good enough for everyone else.

[stevehone]

7 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

All the Russians I know, including my office mate who's lived in the Netherlands for over 20 years, are appalled by the behaviour of Putin. Why should they be denied work or even worse expelled from the countries they may have lived in for many years, unless they're somehow connected to Putin regime? 

why should Ukrainians be denied their lives just because of their nationality?

[Bunce]

On 2/27/2022 at 6:11 PM, enotian said:

Kind of defeats the object doesn't it. Was it Simon Wigg who rode on a Dutch license to improve his route to World Finals? Nobody would have acknowledged him as a Dutch world champion. it would have been a British win.

Important not to consider the individuals in this. Sure it will be harsh on the competitors as I'm sure they're not funded by the Russian government in any way but in these circumstances where there is no other recourse for the actions of Putin isn't it important to send the message to the Russian people that the regime which they live under (allegedly voted for) is rotten and to be ostracised by the global community. And as such isn't welcome to partake in global events.

Of course this needs to be wider than  just sporting events to make the message strong and clear.  But can you see global corporations withdrawing their produce from Russia? Forsaking profits? So it is left to sport to make a stand.

Really difficult as Russia are not the only country/regime which can be considered undesirable. I think Afghanistan are still represented in cricket competitions but we'd hardly invite the Taliban to a party. And we're all more than happy for oppressive middle eastern regimes to buy football clubs. So where does it end and who are the arbitrators of what is and isn't acceptable? Whose to say that our western beliefs are more valid than those of rogue states? We certainly don't live in utopia here in the western world.

However, I think it's fairly obvious to all concerned that the aggressive invasion of Ukraine, for what appears to be historical/egotistical reasons, is abhorrent and clearly not going to be resolved by politicians or corporations, isn't it important to let the Russian public know that the actions of their leaders are not acceptable by the rest of the World.   

Totally agree. Unfair on Sayfutdinov & Laguta, but the World must send a message to this evil dictator. The man is a monster with no regard for human life and must be treated as such. The World has had enough of these people.

[YerRopes]

Haven't read much of this thread, however personally, I don't think Russians should be necessarily penalised for Putin's actions.

I saw Emil's blue and yellow post, assuming it was actually him. 

They both live in Poland too, don't they? 

Mind you, events could determine otherwise.. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by YerRopes

[Triple.H.]

3 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

And I like I said, are you going to be banning every expat Russian from working, even though most have nothing to do with Putin's regime?

We're not talking about Russian teams or riders officially representing Russia - we all agree they should be banned. It's about individuals being allowed to work and earn a living, even if that's riding in the SGP. 

Stop every Russian outside Russia from working, put them under house arrest for example. This then encourages the Russians  most probably the Army to overthrow the dictator.

It won't be pretty or nice but the last time this type of thing happened Nuclear Weapons weren't readily available. 

You're worried about your Russian workmate. Think of the Muslims who are automatically thought of as terrorists. 

Putin isn't going to fall on his sword  the only way to remove him from power is by the Russians doing it.

The guys a busted flush

[enotian]

It appears that the FIA are allowing Russian and Belarussian drivers to compete in a neutral capacity.

Which should mean they at least finish last.  Sorry couldn't resist a gearbox joke.

Seriously though it totally misses the point. I'm sure if one of these neutral competitors were to win Putin will be gutted that he can't use the victory as propaganda owing to it being a triumph for neutrals only.

I imagine FIM will follow suit. 

[hammer1969]

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

There are a lot of tennis tournaments going on at the moment and it's interesting to see some of the developments.

Ukranian player Elina Svitolina pulled out of the Monterrey Open. She was drawn to play a Russian player and said she will not play any Russian or Belarusian unless they played as stateless.

The organisers agreed that her opponent, Anastasia Potapova, will play as a neutral player and representing no country.

Svitolina has been very outspoken on this. If this solution is good enough for her then it should be good enough for everyone else.

Potapova may play as stateless but where will she go at the end of the tournament  - back home to Russia. Svitolina should see the bigger picture not just her tennis match. While Russia is killing innocent people you can't give some the opportunity to compete in sports if they play as stateless and ban others they should all be banned.  We need to stand together and be seen to stand together against this aggression.

[Humphrey Appleby]

4 hours ago, Triple.H. said:

Stop every Russian outside Russia from working, put them under house arrest for example. This then encourages the Russians  most probably the Army to overthrow the dictator.

It will not encourage anything of the sort. The average Russian has no chance of overthrowing Putin who controls all the levers of power including the security forces. No more than Saddam Hussein could be overthrown by Iraqis.

All you will do is reinforce Putin's rhetoric that Russians are being victimised in the world, and turn innocent Russians who don't support Putin against you.

The only way Putin will be overthrown is when his inner circle, the oligarchs or the Russian military leadership decide enough is enough. 

There is a strong argument for other countries to make travelling in and out of Russia very difficult, or prevent Russians in Russia from doing business with the rest of the world. It is very wrong to target Russians who already live and work in other countries unless they have some connection to the Putin regime. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby

[DBP]

Russian F1 driver will be allowed to race this season. So why not Emil and Artem most Russians hate Putin

Edited March 2, 2022 by DBP

[Grachan]

10 hours ago, hammer1969 said:

Potapova may play as stateless but where will she go at the end of the tournament  - back home to Russia. Svitolina should see the bigger picture not just her tennis match. While Russia is killing innocent people you can't give some the opportunity to compete in sports if they play as stateless and ban others they should all be banned.  We need to stand together and be seen to stand together against this aggression.

I can see both sides of the argument really. I don't think it is clear-cut either way in terms of individuals riding as themselves and not representing the country.

Is it down to political allegiances too? Russia are waging a war and giving misinformation to their own people to justify it. Did the USA and the UK not do the same when they invaded Iraq? Should Greg Hancock and Scott Nicholls have been kicked out of the Grand Prix in 2003?

Where does one draw the line? I'm in regular contact with a Russian guy who lives in the USA as part of my job. I don't have a problem with that.

[Humphrey Appleby]

3 hours ago, Grachan said:

Is it down to political allegiances too? Russia are waging a war and giving misinformation to their own people to justify it. Did the USA and the UK not do the same when they invaded Iraq? Should Greg Hancock and Scott Nicholls have been kicked out of the Grand Prix in 2003?

Whilst it's easy to draw parallels, Iraq's regime had already invaded two other countries, had in the past used chemical weapons (against Iran and the Kurds), conducted ethnic cleansing within its own borders, and was largely kept from further bad behaviour through ongoing sanctions and no-fly zones. 

Now whilst various Ukraine governments have undoubtedly been a bit corrupt and to various extents pursued nationalist agendas, they're certainly not amongst the worst in the world and have never actually invaded anyone nor been involved in state-sponsored atrocities in the past 75 years or so. 

To be very clear, Putin has long used the invasions of Iraq and the NATO interventions in the Balkan conflicts to justify his behaviour (e.g. annexation of Crimea and establishment of puppet regimes in parts of Georgia and Moldova), but two wrongs don't make a right. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby