New, New Cross memories

[norbold]

2 hours ago, BOBBATH said:

Sure Norman, it was a genuine question on my part. On my last visit to London- I walked around Plaistow and did wonder where the old East End white cockneys had gone? So I wondered if the same thing applied down the Old Kent Road. Before anybody raises the old Racist card, I was just wondering if the same changes had occurred around OKR. Also it seems from what we read here that there is a lot more petty and gang crime in areas of the old East End and wondering whether the same applied there. Just a request for knowledge -no hidden  motives, but it seems that things have become so divisive you can't ask a question without raising the spectre of being questioned by the Political Correctness brigade (not that I am suggesting you are part of that movement Norman).

Oh right. Thank you. Yes, the good old days before gang crime in the old East End and South London, eh? Those good old days of the Krays and the Richardsons do you mean?

[BOBBATH]

 Yeah well, I don't think the Krays and Richardsons  ever bothered the civilians walking down the street-sort of like the Mafia in NYC and Capone in Chicago. I lived in Illinois 1n 1968-70 and  I'm old enough to remember Mayor Daly in Chicago-a hell of a.  lot safer than today.

[chunky]

"We often complain that gang crime in London is getting out of control nowadays, but gang culture certainly isn't anything new in the British capital. Some one hundred years ago, gangs were still rife in impoverished parts of inner-city London, the difference being that back then gangs were much more entrenched in local communities.

There were several gangs operating across the city in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The Bethnal Green Mob, the Hoxton Mob, the Broad Mob, the Elephant and Castle Mob, the Islington Mob, the Kings Cross Gang, the West End Boys and the Whitechapel Mob were just some of these notorious gangs.

Some of these gangs were known as the 'Kosher Nostra', in reference to their Jewish background. The Yiddishers, the Aldgate Mob, the Russian Jews, the Bessarabian Tigers and the Odessians are examples of well-known Jewish gangs who used to run pockets of North London and East London during this period.

Probably the most famous of these gangs were the Bessarabian Tigers, also known as the Stop At Nothing Gang. They were a group of immigrant Jews from Eastern Europe, the gang's name denoting their homeland on the Russian-Romanian border which is today known as Moldova.

Instability in the region in the late 19th century brought many Bessarabian Jews to London, most of them settling in Whitechapel where there was already a well-established German Jewish community. Gang leaders were quick to recruit the Jewish newcomers, who they would use to both protect and terrorise local Jewish business owners."

[BOBBATH]

Thanks Chunky- a most interesting post, I certainly learned some history there. Cheers

[iris123]

How safe was Victorian London?

The short answer would seem to be, not at all

Leaving aside drunkenness, theft was rampant. While children might pickpocket and steal from barrows on the streets, women might engage in shoplifting, and, as for London's sly con men, cheats, "magsmen" or "sharpers," they were notorious. So were the housebreakers working in teams, and slipping into homes and shops and warehouses. Mugging, with its associated violence, was rife. A hanky dipped in chloroform might be used to subdue someone before robbing him, or a man's hat might be tipped over his face to facilitate the crime (this was called "bonneting"). Another ruse was to lure men down to the riverside by using prostitutes as decoys. The dupes would then be beaten up and robbed out of sight of passers-by. Violence could, of course, easily extend to murder. Prostitutes themselves ran huge risks. No one knows how many of them were strangled or stabbed or butchered (Jack the Ripper was far from the only villain, and Dickens's Nancy must be mourned for many a pitiful "lost woman"). No respectable woman would have ventured forth after dark at all, if she had any choice in the matter. Even if a policeman appeared on the crime scene, he might be driven off by having nitric acid thrown in his face. The helpless were at special risk. Well-turned-out children might be waylaid, dragged down an alley, and stripped of their finery, or pet dogs kidnapped for ransom or simply filched for their skins. Around mid-century, and again in 1862, "garrotting" or half-strangling unwary pedestrians from behind while accomplices stripped them of their valuables, caused great waves of panic (White 337). There were big-time criminals as well as gangs of street hooligans. In a new version of highway robbery, for instance, bankers' consignments might be snatched in transit. There was also a surge in gun crime in the 1880s, and hardened burglars "increasingly went armed" (White 343).

[Split]

Well, I often walked home from New Cross Speedway and Millwall football ground in the 60's. I never encountered any thieving thugs and honestly never felt threatened in any way on my way home in the dark. It was quite a walk to East Dulwich but I was young and fit and a stop for fish & chips on the way provided some nourishment.

 

[chunky]

2 hours ago, Split said:

Well, I often walked home from New Cross Speedway and Millwall football ground in the 60's. I never encountered any thieving thugs and honestly never felt threatened in any way on my way home in the dark. It was quite a walk to East Dulwich but I was young and fit and a stop for fish & chips on the way provided some nourishment.

 

Realistically, I think that the 60's and 70's were probably the safest era to be out walking around. Before then, you had to deal with the dregs of post-war society, and since then, there are just too many self-important thugs...

[steve roberts]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

Realistically, I think that the 60's and 70's were probably the safest era to be out walking around. Before then, you had to deal with the dregs of post-war society, and since then, there are just too many self-important thugs...

I'd agree...I grew up during that period and never felt intimidated walking or playing in my locality or the woods/cycle rides etc.

[iris123]

I wonder how much of this is more perception than fact based ?

I certainly remember being chased by skinheads. I remember my mates being chased by skinheads. But i also remember my west indian mates chasing indian people. I remember the riots in London. I guess as you get older though you feel more vulnerable. I used to walk back from Brixton after the pubs closed with no problems. Just the other week i was talking to my niece who lives with my sister in Lambeth Walk and all she mentioned was being careful walking with your mobile phone in the hand because it might get snatched by people on scooters or e-rollers.

[steve roberts]

4 hours ago, iris123 said:

I wonder how much of this is more perception than fact based ?

I certainly remember being chased by skinheads. I remember my mates being chased by skinheads. But i also remember my west indian mates chasing indian people. I remember the riots in London. I guess as you get older though you feel more vulnerable. I used to walk back from Brixton after the pubs closed with no problems. Just the other week i was talking to my niece who lives with my sister in Lambeth Walk and all she mentioned was being careful walking with your mobile phone in the hand because it might get snatched by people on scooters or e-rollers.

Personally I think the media often doesn't help...stories abound regarding unsafe streets and it can give the impression that one is vulnerable when stepping outside your front door rather than allowing a bit of common sense to put things into some sort or perspective. I grew up on Blackbird Leys and had great childhood/teenage years but the local press would always look for stories to put the Estate down. My mother was a local councillor and was often having to take issue with the local press for being disproportionate with the facts...especially over the infamous "joy riding" episode that achieved national notoriety.

Edited April 8, 2023 by steve roberts

[Lefty]

17 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

.....I grew up on Blackbird Leys and had great childhood/teenage years but the local press would always look for stories to put the Estate down.....

...especially over the infamous "joy riding" episode that achieved national notoriety.

As Private Eye said "The City Of Screaming Tyres" 

[chunky]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

Personally I think the media often doesn't help...stories abound regarding unsafe streets and it can give the impression that one is vulnerable when stepping outside your front door rather than allowing a bit of common sense to put things into some sort or perspective. I grew up on Blackbird Leys and had great childhood/teenage years but the local press would always look for stories to put the Estate down. My mother was a local councillor and was often having to take issue with the local press for being disproportionate with the facts...especially over the infamous "joy riding" episode that achieved national notoriety.

I have to agree, but I do feel that things are worse these days. I'm always seeing reports of muggings and stabbings - often in broad daylight. That being said, it's so much easier to spread the news now via the internet, so will see more of these stories.

As far as you growing up on Blackbird Leys, I grew up on the St. Helier council estate, and it was never as bad (or it didn't seem to be) as the media would have you believe! Of course, we did have the bad areas, such as the Phipps Bridge Estate (Mitcham), Durand Close (Hackbridge), and High Path Estate (South Wimbledon), but I stayed away from those!

[iris123]

16 hours ago, chunky said:

I have to agree, but I do feel that things are worse these days. I'm always seeing reports of muggings and stabbings - often in broad daylight. That being said, it's so much easier to spread the news now via the internet, so will see more of these stories.

As far as you growing up on Blackbird Leys, I grew up on the St. Helier council estate, and it was never as bad (or it didn't seem to be) as the media would have you believe! Of course, we did have the bad areas, such as the Phipps Bridge Estate (Mitcham), Durand Close (Hackbridge), and High Path Estate (South Wimbledon), but I stayed away from those!

And I went to Western rd school in Mitcham near Phipps Bridge and had a lot of school mates who lived there. So was often there and had no trouble at all. Also the other week when back visiting my parents ended up getting off the tram there and walking via Abbey Mills back home. It was dead, apart from talking to a poor young guy who had lost a leg and was in one of those little vehicles for disabled people. I just asked him if he needed help navigating the barriers. He was ok,but we had a little talk on the way to the road. Nothing threatening at all, and never have I experienced anything from the 70s til now

[chunky]

5 hours ago, iris123 said:

And I went to Western rd school in Mitcham near Phipps Bridge and had a lot of school mates who lived there. So was often there and had no trouble at all. Also the other week when back visiting my parents ended up getting off the tram there and walking via Abbey Mills back home. It was dead, apart from talking to a poor young guy who had lost a leg and was in one of those little vehicles for disabled people. I just asked him if he needed help navigating the barriers. He was ok,but we had a little talk on the way to the road. Nothing threatening at all, and never have I experienced anything from the 70s til now

I have a mate who lives in Dalton Avenue, and since they knocked down most of Phipps Bridge, I'm quite happy to get the tram there. Never had any problems elsewhere in Mitcham - despite much of it looking like a WW2 bomb site!

[iris123]

4 minutes ago, chunky said:

I have a mate who lives in Dalton Avenue, and since they knocked down most of Phipps Bridge, I'm quite happy to get the tram there. Never had any problems elsewhere in Mitcham - despite much of it looking like a WW2 bomb site!

One of my school mates ended up captaining Chelsea. He lived on the estate growing up. I always liked it actually. It was sort of like the country farms where they never threw anything away. The front gardens of the houses around the estate were full of old car part etc 

We also had more than our fair share of gypsies at school. And I remember one boys first day he had to be given a bath before he could join the class !!! You wouldn't get that in most areas I guess

Edited April 9, 2023 by iris123

[iris123]

• 
• Millwall players training outside the ground, with the Greyhound Tote up above them. Looks like you could have a free view into the speedway stadium , as well as the Den

[Ovalman]

On 4/12/2023 at 6:23 PM, iris123 said:

• 
• Millwall players training outside the ground, with the Greyhound Tote up above them. Looks like you could have a free view into the speedway stadium , as well as the Den

Let em all come down to the Den!

[Ovalman]

On 4/6/2023 at 4:48 PM, Split said:

Well, I often walked home from New Cross Speedway and Millwall football ground in the 60's. I never encountered any thieving thugs and honestly never felt threatened in any way on my way home in the dark. It was quite a walk to East Dulwich but I was young and fit and a stop for fish & chips on the way provided some nourishment.

 

But it was a bit dodgy being an Arsenal, Charlton, or any other fan around there in the 60s. That's a fair old hike, New Cross to East Dulwich. I lived in Nunhead, about 30 minute walk, for the dogs post 63 and the Den. Dulwich Hamlet about 30 mins walk as well. Dulwich and New Cross 2 different worlds now.

I used to go across to Highbury when i was 10 or11, train and tube, no major problems 66/67. But even then there were certain areas you didnt feel safe in.

Edited April 13, 2023 by auntie doris

[Ovalman]

On 4/4/2023 at 5:32 PM, BOBBATH said:

Great photos of a track I sadly never got to visit. Is the area shown  around  the Old Kent road atough area these days-streetcrime etc.? Is it still a white working class area ?

Was there last year, I reckon most of the white working-class cockneys have moved to Kent. A bit of gentrification around the Old Kent Road. The New Den is still full of white faces, very few black faces, but same as Arsenal, Wet Spam, Chelsea, etc., most fans won't live locally like they used to. Lots of different nationalities around there now, Jamaicans, Nigerians, Nepalese, Romanians, Portuguese, Brazilians, Turkish, Polish, Chinese, Asian, etc., stores

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by auntie doris

[Ovalman]

On 4/8/2023 at 4:06 PM, steve roberts said:

Personally I think the media often doesn't help...stories abound regarding unsafe streets and it can give the impression that one is vulnerable when stepping outside your front door rather than allowing a bit of common sense to put things into some sort or perspective. I grew up on Blackbird Leys and had great childhood/teenage years but the local press would always look for stories to put the Estate down. My mother was a local councillor and was often having to take issue with the local press for being disproportionate with the facts...especially over the infamous "joy riding" episode that achieved national notoriety.

I remember Joycey from my night's out in Oxford City Centre in the 70s.