TotallyHonestJohn Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 Watch this and the question is "Has the Sport really moved on" Regards THJ 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topaz325 Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 Danny Kelly any sport to be successful needs aggressive marketing . camping chair fans… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Watch this and the question is "Has the Sport really moved on" Regards THJ A rudderless ship without a suitable Captain, John, for far, far, too many years.. Crying out for someone to properly lead it... You only have to look at the threads for teams struggling to get a decent team together next year to see how ridiculous the whole operating model is.. The "collective" are desperate to keep as many clubs going as possible, (any Speedway must be seen as better than no Speedway), yet they dont ensure as a "collective" that every team has a fair chance of being successful. Yet they will use a supposed "team equality" mechanic which we all know to be far too subjective when it comes to previous riding numbers in the teams rode for, home track advantage of previous tracks, amount of meetings done, assessed averages depending on where you are from etc to be of any tangible accurate use.. Some teams next season in Division Two will, once again, have three heat leaders of a high level, (on a par with some in Div One given they will be the same riders), and other teams will end up with second strings having to take heat leader positions. The result? Well, we know that dont we? The teams using second strings as heat leaders will struggle at home and be dreadful away. However all will come to the tapes "relatively equal" and no doubt every team will talk up their side. "Strength in depth, always have a good reserve, all can put two points on their averages", etc etc etc.. What the "collective" (still after all these years of doing the same thing year in, year out), fail to grasp, is that unless EVERY track can be competitive then you will never move the sport organically forward... Getting visited by teams who are "cannon fodder" simply cannot be good for the host clubs business, yet they happily allow such things to happen... With the ultimate irony being that a few will throw hundreds of thousands of pounds into their teams to try and win something with only marginally more kudos than winning a meat raffle at the local British Legion. With the lack of kudos, financial rewards and publicity, all down to their very own operating model.. In short mate. No. The sport hasnt moved on.. (Over here).. In fact you would have to say that it has regressed a long, long way.. Edited December 15, 2021 by mikebv 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 6 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Watch this and the question is "Has the Sport really moved on" Regards THJ Has it a place to move on to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 Shane was poetry on a bike. Absolute legend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted December 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 26 minutes ago, ruffdiamond said: Has it a place to move on to? A suppose that's the crux of the question... answers on a postcard please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 (edited) Thanks for sharing that. It reminded me of a programme Channel 4 did in the early nineties and it followed Gary Havelock and Martin Dugard and their families. It led up to a behind the scenes view of the GB world team cup final at Coventry that year. It basically told the same story, down to hardcore fans, dying sport etc etc. If TV did another one now I'm pretty sure it would tell the same story. Edited December 16, 2021 by Deano 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 16, 2021 Report Share Posted December 16, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Deano said: Thanks for sharing that. It reminded me of a programme Channel 4 did in the early nineties and it followed Gary Havelock and Martin Dugard and their families. It led up to a behind the scenes view of the GB world team cup final at Coventry that year. It basically told the same story, down to hardcore fans, dying sport etc etc. If TV did another one now I'm pretty sure it would tell the same story. Millions of pounds given to the teams by Sky since then too... Quite an incredible "achievement" to deliver what we have today... Edited December 16, 2021 by mikebv 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted December 18, 2021 Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 (edited) On 12/15/2021 at 2:42 PM, TotallyHonestJohn said: Watch this and the question is "Has the Sport really moved on" Regards THJ It did move on for a short while when the Sky money rolled in. But unfortunately the money rolled out of the sport via riders pay instead of some being retained and reinvested in it and thus ultimately it dropped back to what we have had for a number of years Depressingly, the same folk are leading the sport and by example they are unable to move away from continually doing what they have always done in the way they run the sport. Sadly with too many clubs & too few riders being available alongside insufficient vision by promoters who refuse to seek & accept external help if it means giving up some (not all) of their control the future doesn’t bode well for any significant improvement on the current scenario. Edited December 18, 2021 by 1 valve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 18, 2021 Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 1 hour ago, 1 valve said: It did move on for a short while when the Sky money rolled in. But unfortunately the money rolled out of the sport via riders pay instead of some being retained and reinvested in it and thus ultimately it dropped back to what we have had for a number of years Depressingly, the same folk are leading the sport and by example they are unable to move away from continually doing what they have always done in the way they run the sport. Sadly with too many clubs & too few riders being available alongside insufficient vision by promoters who refuse to seek & accept external help if it means giving up some (not all) of their control the future doesn’t bode well for any significant improvement on the current scenario. It did certainly feel as if there could be a "new dawn" during those first couple of Sky seasons... I seem to remember a lot of TV meetings having some "entertainment plan" included to try and make an "event" out of the evening, with, on quite a few occasions I attended, a reduced entrance fee using the 'extra money' Sky gave them for showing the meeting from their track... Then it all stopped and fell back into the usual stuff we still have today.. I hadn't seen that doc so was interested to hear Chris Louis' earnings from around that time, (almost six figures). So you can only wonder what the likes of Tony R were on then? And Danny Kelly's views on Speedway and where it could go to if marketed correctly were particularly interesting given his background.. £9 to get in at KL too, which is on par today when you add in inflation.. Of course post that doc, Sky subsequently put well over a million in a season for circa 20 years which sadly was the golden opportunity to leave a great legacy for the sport.. Probably the biggest mistake made ever was how the Sky money was used, and sadly, that lost opportunity to truly develop the sport to any where near its potential may never come again.. (In the UK)... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano Posted December 18, 2021 Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 (edited) There are plenty of people in the U.K. with money to burn. You only have to look at the money thrown at Football for zero return. Once the powers that be reduce the outgoings to be lower than what comes in, the sport can look forward. Until then it’s going nowhere. Edited December 18, 2021 by Deano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehone Posted December 18, 2021 Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 On 12/15/2021 at 9:49 PM, TotallyHonestJohn said: A suppose that's the crux of the question... answers on a postcard please... or back of a postage stamp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenga Posted December 18, 2021 Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 (edited) On 12/15/2021 at 2:42 PM, TotallyHonestJohn said: Watch this and the question is "Has the Sport really moved on" Regards THJ speedway has never moved on . watched this today before i actually seen THJ,s documentary and the sport still seems to be run the same . a good watch . the posts on here are correct in every way . clubs throwing cash @ riders and hoping the fans will pay for it . clubs only have theme selves to blame . hope it sinks in somewhere ! It,s a £10.00 sport all day long . Edited December 18, 2021 by jenga 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWC Posted December 19, 2021 Report Share Posted December 19, 2021 On 12/15/2021 at 4:15 PM, mikebv said: Some teams next season in Division Two will, once again, have three heat leaders of a high level, (on a par with some in Div One given they will be the same riders), and other teams will end up with second strings having to take heat leader positions. In that case you are advocating a form of ‘ rider control’ that will even out the riders over all teams? That used to take place back in the day when promoters had the welfare of the sport in mind and supporters turned up whoever was riding. Maybe is these desperate times a similar system needs to be reintroduced for the benefit of all teams - however money takes precedent now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted December 19, 2021 Report Share Posted December 19, 2021 23 hours ago, Deano said: There are plenty of people in the U.K. with money to burn. You only have to look at the money thrown at Football for zero return. Once the powers that be reduce the outgoings to be lower than what comes in, the sport can look forward. Until then it’s going nowhere. that's the first hour of the first lesson on the first day of business school and yet its ignored by so called 'business men' running the game 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 19, 2021 Report Share Posted December 19, 2021 9 minutes ago, GWC said: In that case you are advocating a form of ‘ rider control’ that will even out the riders over all teams? That used to take place back in the day when promoters had the welfare of the sport in mind and supporters turned up whoever was riding. Maybe is these desperate times a similar system needs to be reintroduced for the benefit of all teams - however money takes precedent now. 1000% it is needed.. There are enough contrived rules anyway so one more (that is currently so desperately required), wont be an issue.. As, in the past, some riders may decide not to ride where allocated but I would suggest that there isnt an "Ole Olsen" level of rider anymore who could hold away... And all seem keen to ride as much as possible these days, including taking as many guest bookings as they can, so none would have too many issues getting a guaranteed seasons racing I would think.. Maximum pay rates would certainly help deliver this too, with a maximum meeting payment for every club being the same for all.. There is no point saving teams without fixing the underlying issues why they needed saving in the first place.. As all you do there is prolong the inevitable for "whoever" is next.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaizer Posted December 19, 2021 Report Share Posted December 19, 2021 13 minutes ago, mikebv said: 1000% it is needed.. There are enough contrived rules anyway so one more (that is currently so desperately required), wont be an issue.. As, in the past, some riders may decide not to ride where allocated but I would suggest that there isnt an "Ole Olsen" level of rider anymore who could hold away... And all seem keen to ride as much as possible these days, including taking as many guest bookings as they can, so none would have too many issues getting a guaranteed seasons racing I would think.. Maximum pay rates would certainly help deliver this too, with a maximum meeting payment for every club being the same for all.. There is no point saving teams without fixing the underlying issues why they needed saving in the first place.. As all you do there is prolong the inevitable for "whoever" is next.. Didn't really work though..as I understand the designated riders for Glasgow in them days refused to travel leading to severely under strength sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 20, 2021 Report Share Posted December 20, 2021 9 hours ago, Jaizer said: Didn't really work though..as I understand the designated riders for Glasgow in them days refused to travel leading to severely under strength sides. A different time now though.... Not as many options for riders these days... It would take some negotiations if anyone particularly doesn't want to move, but it definitely could work... They could follow a system similar to the draft system in the US, whereby if a player doesn't want to go where he gets picked then that team can negotiate with the one he does want to go to... With the end result always being that the team in need of improving always get either money or players off the team wanting him, thus they either have money to purchase better players, or have an improved team from the ones taken in exchange... The player too being happy he gets to play where he wants.. However, as I say, nowadays there isn't any 'elite' riders who should ever be able to dictate where they ride, and all seem desperate to double up to earn as much as they can, so maybe now is exactly the time to introduce some such a system? There are though other systems that could be used... Maybe it could be as simple as setting a 'top 3' maximum average within the overall team figure? The mean average of all the heat leaders combined from last year times three becomes the figure....? Or having a set figure based on averages that teams can only have two riders over that figure. Eg top two max 15 points...? Having more money to spend in such a minority sport shouldn't be such an advantage, neither should team building late be such a disadvantage... Many fans go along just to watch the speedway rather than care too much who wins on the night, given the way the sport is ran, therefore, you need these people to look at every fixture and think each is worth going to.. If they see a potential hammering against some weak septet then that is hardly likely to get them along to watch... And it only takes a couple of those type of meetings on the bounce for maybe a month to pass since they attended and that then becomes a threat as they get out of the attending habit... Speedway can't afford "weak teams" as those at the top don't get attendances large enough to carry it forward themselves.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinBSN Posted December 27, 2021 Report Share Posted December 27, 2021 On 12/20/2021 at 2:26 AM, mikebv said: A different time now though.... Not as many options for riders these days... It would take some negotiations if anyone particularly doesn't want to move, but it definitely could work... They could follow a system similar to the draft system in the US, whereby if a player doesn't want to go where he gets picked then that team can negotiate with the one he does want to go to... With the end result always being that the team in need of improving always get either money or players off the team wanting him, thus they either have money to purchase better players, or have an improved team from the ones taken in exchange... The player too being happy he gets to play where he wants.. However, as I say, nowadays there isn't any 'elite' riders who should ever be able to dictate where they ride, and all seem desperate to double up to earn as much as they can, so maybe now is exactly the time to introduce some such a system? There are though other systems that could be used... Maybe it could be as simple as setting a 'top 3' maximum average within the overall team figure? The mean average of all the heat leaders combined from last year times three becomes the figure....? Or having a set figure based on averages that teams can only have two riders over that figure. Eg top two max 15 points...? Having more money to spend in such a minority sport shouldn't be such an advantage, neither should team building late be such a disadvantage... Many fans go along just to watch the speedway rather than care too much who wins on the night, given the way the sport is ran, therefore, you need these people to look at every fixture and think each is worth going to.. If they see a potential hammering against some weak septet then that is hardly likely to get them along to watch... And it only takes a couple of those type of meetings on the bounce for maybe a month to pass since they attended and that then becomes a threat as they get out of the attending habit... Speedway can't afford "weak teams" as those at the top don't get attendances large enough to carry it forward themselves.. Limiting clubs to a top two of 15 would mean more riders needed in the 5/6 point market which don't exist. It would then only shift the money wars to the lesser riders with most potential anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted December 27, 2021 Report Share Posted December 27, 2021 Christ that takes ya back, oh that race with Parks, Louis and Rickardsson, they didn't do it justice at all, it was one of THE best races ever at Lynn! The whole production was downbeat, the music, everything, rain, that didn't do the sport any good at all! Our sport has always 'lived for today', the early promoters put meetings on in greyhound stadiums etc, riders loved racing their bikes, they loved the money to be made even more and the punters turned up in their droves, easy money all round. Everything was hunky dory. Then the rot set in, they weren't making such huge amounts of money, they had offers on land if they did own stadiums, modern times were coming. If they'd set our sport in stone like football is perhaps we wouldn't be down to a handful of stadiums but who knows? Yeah the SKY money was good but absolutely nothing like football millions, could the BSPA bought all the stadiums left with that money? What should they have done with it which would've lasted till now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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