E I Addio Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 55 minutes ago, steve roberts said: Personally I think that you should be able to place your top five averaged riders in what order you wish and six and seventh at reserve (based on a seven man team) as it always used to be. Allow the Team Manager flexibilty allowing tactics to play a part. Well, for the sake of discussion, lets put it another way round . If the team manager could set the team in any order he liked what would do on the present programmed rides ? For my part I don’t see any point in him putting his best rider at 2 or 4 for an easy win if it leaves a second string in a heat leader role. 1and 5 are likely to be out together 2 or three times anyway so it doesn’t make much difference where they ride. I can just see about see the argument that if 1and 5 both like the same part of the track they could be separated. However , from a fans perspective I , personally like to see the No1 race jacket as a coveted position that riders have to work to aspire to, and get paid accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, E I Addio said: Well, for the sake of discussion, lets put it another way round . If the team manager could set the team in any order he liked what would do on the present programmed rides ? For my part I don’t see any point in him putting his best rider at 2 or 4 for an easy win if it leaves a second string in a heat leader role. 1and 5 are likely to be out together 2 or three times anyway so it doesn’t make much difference where they ride. I can just see about see the argument that if 1and 5 both like the same part of the track they could be separated. However , from a fans perspective I , personally like to see the No1 race jacket as a coveted position that riders have to work to aspire to, and get paid accordingly. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of the present heat formula and pairings just basing my observation on the old 13/15 heat formula and I'm guessing that things are very different now which is what I guess this particular narrative is about? Under the previous system having a "Star" rider programmed at Number Four gave you a potentially strong pairing in the last heat away from home during the 13 heat formula. Ivan Mauger occasionally rode at Number Two at the County Ground to off-set any potential tactical move by the away team. Edited December 11, 2021 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 6 hours ago, E I Addio said: If the team manager could set the team in any order he liked what would do on the present programmed rides ? For my part I don’t see any point in him putting his best rider at 2 or 4 for an easy win if it leaves a second string in a heat leader role. 1and 5 are likely to be out together 2 or three times anyway so it doesn’t make much difference where they ride. It's all relative to how the opposition lines up isn't it. Presuming that the away team gets to see how the home team has lined up. So if the home team line up with a 'traditional order' the comparison provided by Humphrey below is key. If the away team manager thinks his highest averaged rider is unlikely to defeat the home teams #1 (or their #5 as well) then you wouldn't select them in position #1 or #5, putting them up against the home #1 and #5 on 4 occasions, in the first 14 heats. Presuming that the away highest average rider can beat all the other home riders (2, 3, 4, 6 and 7) then placing him in position 4 would yield 10 from 4. Compared to 8 from 4 in the number 1 position. Of course that would mean lower averaged riders taking harder rides so their scores may drop by the equivalent or more so nothing is guaranteed. But if you knew that one of your lower averaged riders was going to struggle against any of the opposition you might as well put them up against the tougher opposition. Of course it does rob the paying public of seeing the top riders from each team locking horns as often as they do with the fixed line ups. Which is presumably why they're fixed. I'm not too fussed about seeing the opposing best riders up against each other three times during the meeting and would be more interested in the tactical nuances (I still wish every rider could take one TAC sub per meeting whenever a team is 6 down). However, there'll be others who want to see those top riders clashing more often. On 12/8/2021 at 1:57 PM, Humphrey Appleby said: Sort of... 1 meets 1 twice, 2, 3, 4, 5 twice and 6 (missing 7) 2 meets 1, 2 twice, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 3 home meets 1, 2, 3 twice, 4, 5, 6 twice (missing 7) / 3 away meets 1, 2, 3 twice, 4, 5, 6, 7 4 meets 1, 2, 3, 4 twice, 5, 6, 7 / 4 away meets 1, 2, 3, 4 twice, 5, 6 twice (missing 7) 5 meets 1 twice, 2 3, 4, 5 twice, 6, 7 6 home meets 1, 2, 3, 4 twice, 6, 7 twice (missing 5) / 6 away meets 1, 2, 3 twice, 4, 6, 7 twice (missing 5) 7 home meets 2, 3, 5, 6 twice, 7 three times (missing 1 & 4) / 7 away meets 2, 4, 5, 6 twice, 7 three times (missing 1 & 3) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 7 hours ago, steve roberts said: Unfortunately I have no knowledge of the present heat formula and pairings just basing my observation on the old 13/15 heat formula and I'm guessing that things are very different now which is what I guess this particular narrative is about? Under the previous system having a "Star" rider programmed at Number Four gave you a potentially strong pairing in the last heat away from home during the 13 heat formula. Ivan Mauger occasionally rode at Number Two at the County Ground to off-set any potential tactical move by the away team. Under the 'old' 13-heat format, the order of 1, 3, 4, 5 probably didn't really matter so much provided a strong rider was paired with a weaker one in each heat. With the 'new' 15-heat format, putting your No.1 at 2 or 4 would unbalance what are intended to be heats for weaker riders, and then mean that Heat 13 wouldn't feature the strongest riders as intended. The issue of needing your best riders in the last heat doesn't really apply to the 15-heat format as the last 3 programmed heats are essentially the same riding positions pitted against each other, followed by the nominated which you can put your two preferred riders in anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 7 hours ago, E I Addio said: However , from a fans perspective I , personally like to see the No1 race jacket as a coveted position that riders have to work to aspire to, and get paid accordingly. In a world where merchandise can be a profitable income stream is it not only a matter of time that the riders insist on wearing their own 'unique' rider number? "And riding at number 1 it's number 505 Robert Lambert!!!". No different to when squad numbers were introduced in football and it doesn't seem to matter in SGP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 1 minute ago, enotian said: No different to when squad numbers were introduced in football and it doesn't seem to matter in SGP. Didn't speedway briefly use squad numbers a few years ago? So riders had both a squad and riding number... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 Just now, Humphrey Appleby said: Didn't speedway briefly use squad numbers a few years ago? So riders had both a squad and riding number... I recall the one season 1 to 7 home and 8 to 14 away (like Poland do) trial but i'm struggling to recall squad numbers? I'm sure it was a massive success. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted December 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 22 minutes ago, enotian said: I recall the one season 1 to 7 home and 8 to 14 away (like Poland do) trial but i'm struggling to recall squad numbers? I'm sure it was a massive success. Yep - each signing was assigned a different squad number they had to keep. I think by the end of the season didn’t Oxford end up on 30 something? No surprise but the idea was quickly dropped at the following AGM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Najjer said: Yep - each signing was assigned a different squad number they had to keep. I think by the end of the season didn’t Oxford end up on 30 something? No surprise but the idea was quickly dropped at the following AGM If I remember, it was to do with team race suit covers which were made of some sort of stretchy material to which you couldn't easily attach different numbers. Edited December 11, 2021 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 11, 2021 Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 41 minutes ago, enotian said: In a world where merchandise can be a profitable income stream is it not only a matter of time that the riders insist on wearing their own 'unique' rider number? "And riding at number 1 it's number 505 Robert Lambert!!!". No different to when squad numbers were introduced in football and it doesn't seem to matter in SGP. As far as speedway is concerned, I think the days have gone when sales of merchandise are high enough to make to make much difference to profit ! I have a Hans Andersen cap that he took off his mechanics head and gave me, one of Andreas Jonssons shirts with his GP number on, which I also think he gave me and one of Dave Watts T-Shirts, but I’ve never seen anyone else wearing any of them so I don’t think they are exactly in high demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted December 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said: If I remember, it was to do with team race suit covers which were made of some sort of stretchy material to which you couldn't easily attach different numbers. So called to increase merchandise sales so that fans could buy a racing top for rider ‘A’ and you would have the correct rider number printed on the back. They weren’t allowing for Oxford to use every man and his dog as well as Jamie Courtney I don’t think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technik Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 I believe over the years the options have been taken away & now all the fans are left with is a set menu. There is now nothing for the terrace manager to discuss. All that can be done in todays speedway is to put a TS in when you go 6 behind & this is only once. I think teams should start with a named squad of ten riders working with a team on a set average & then must track a team of riders below that limit all season so that teams are kept level all season. The top 5 should be able to be positioned where they are most suited & paired up as the manager wants. Tac Subs should be unlimited but only when 8 or more behind with riders only allowed one per meeting. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Technik said: I believe over the years the options have been taken away & now all the fans are left with is a set menu. There is now nothing for the terrace manager to discuss. All that can be done in todays speedway is to put a TS in when you go 6 behind & this is only once. I think teams should start with a named squad of ten riders working with a team on a set average & then must track a team of riders below that limit all season so that teams are kept level all season. The top 5 should be able to be positioned where they are most suited & paired up as the manager wants. Tac Subs should be unlimited but only when 8 or more behind with riders only allowed one per meeting. Your idea whilst imaginative unfortunately falls at the first hurdle as There are insufficient riders available for squads of 10 which, even if there was the clubs would not have the money to pay for them - given those not riding would still need an income. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Najjer Posted December 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 5 hours ago, Technik said: I believe over the years the options have been taken away & now all the fans are left with is a set menu. There is now nothing for the terrace manager to discuss. All that can be done in todays speedway is to put a TS in when you go 6 behind & this is only once. I think teams should start with a named squad of ten riders working with a team on a set average & then must track a team of riders below that limit all season so that teams are kept level all season. The top 5 should be able to be positioned where they are most suited & paired up as the manager wants. Tac Subs should be unlimited but only when 8 or more behind with riders only allowed one per meeting. Good idea in principle but as has been said, the lack of riders to produce squads is the biggest problem. The idea on free movement on riders and tactical subs I like though. Would make the end of a meeting a lot more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, 1 valve said: Your idea whilst imaginative unfortunately falls at the first hurdle as There are insufficient riders available for squads of 10 which, even if there was the clubs would not have the money to pay for them - given those not riding would still need an income. In the top league it would work... Six man teams and eight or even nine man squads... Just 48 to 54 riders needed.... All DU anyway virtually, so all would have two jobs to cover not riding every week... Edited December 12, 2021 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbuck Posted December 12, 2021 Report Share Posted December 12, 2021 Going back to the 1950's, the rule was that any rider who had scored less than 50% of possible points over the previous 6 matches, could be named as reserve. This gave Team Managers of the time much more options when selecting their teams - especially for away matches. There was never any ruling then, of which rider could only be named as number one - the Team Manager was free to juggle the riding numbers of his riders in any way he wanted. In those days, team were of eight men - 6 in the team proper, and 2 as reserves. Matches were over 14 heats with the 6 team-proper men programmed for four rides and the reserves two each, but each reserve could have an additional two rides in the place of an off form team-proper man, or if a visiting team happened to be a man short as sometimes happened, each of the reserves could take two of the missing man's rides. The modern idea of allowing reserves to have up to seven rides is nonsensical and frequently gives the reserves a totally disproportionate say in results. Towards the end of the 1950's, the format was changed to 7-man teams but with 3 pairings, each taking five rides, and only one reserve, and again, the reserve was programmed for only two rides but could replace a team-proper man in another three. This seemed a much better system to me, and I'd like to see it brought back. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.