Ovalman Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Good to see Greg in top 5 for 3 decades running. Edited December 6, 2021 by auntie doris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 No way should Jan Anderson be in the top 10 in the 80’s……Kenny Carter was excellent but not better than Michael Lee for me but it’s all about opinions I suppose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickinho Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 17 hours ago, Bruiser said: No way should Jan Anderson be in the top 10 in the 80’s……Kenny Carter was excellent but not better than Michael Lee for me but it’s all about opinions I suppose I agree. Michael Lee in his prime was the most successful of the two but Kenny was the more natural rider imo. It was great watching them both though and i hope that British speedway continues to produce many more like them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 No way, by any metric, was Phil Crump top 10 of the 1980s – the only seasons he would have been in the top 10 in the world were 81 and 84, so not even close to the top ten for the decade. Disagree also with Andersson, Wigg and probably Sanders. For me it’s Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen as a clear top three; then Lee, Carter, S Moran; then four from Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko, Morton and Jessup (and maybe Sanders). Jessup is an odd one in that he was the best rider in the world in 1980, a top ten rider in 1981 (where but for ef he likely would have landed a second consecutive silver medal) – but not world class after that. Morton is the opposite, consistent throughout the decade. If I refer back to season by season rankings I did a few years back, then the top ten riders based on their best five seasons across the decade were (and noting Penhall rode only in three seasons): Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen, Carter, S Moran, Lee, Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko. That list would have Morton (11th), Andersson (13th), Sanders (14th), Crump (17th), Wigg (19th). If you were to base the list on top three seasons (i.e. rewarding “peak performance”) the only change to the riders in the top ten is Jessup in for Ermolenko. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 10:57 PM, Nickinho said: I agree. Michael Lee in his prime was the most successful of the two but Kenny was the more natural rider imo. Never was Kenny a more natural rider than Mike Lee. Mike Lee was, along with Darcy Ward, the best natural talent of the last 50 years imo. Don't get me wrong, Kenny was the best visting rider I saw around Hyde Rd, and there are few who would compare for speed or determination, but there are plenty of riders I'd argue had more natural talent than him - Kelly Moran, PC, Emil, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 AM, BL65 said: 1970s: 1. Ivan Mauger, 2. Ole Olsen, 3. Anders Michanek 4. Peter Collins 5. Phil Crump 6. Barry Briggs 7. Ray Wilson 8. Martin Ashby 9. Malcolm Simmons 10. John Louis I'd definitely have PC ahead of Michanek in 3rd. Mike Lee - arguably the best rider in the world in '79- needs to be in there, certainly ahead of Louis. And can't see a good argument for Briggo being on the list. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 AM, BL65 said: 2010s: 1. Greg Hancock 2. Tai Woffinden 3. Bartosz Zmarzlik 4. Tomasz Gollob 5. Nicki Pedersen 6. Emil Sayfutdinov 7. Jason Doyle 8. Jaroslaw Hampel 9. Chris Holder 10. Fredrik Lingdgren Not much to disagree on the list, though I'd have Ward,Jonsson or Puk ahead of Freddie, but I'd definitely change the order around. I'd suggest: 1 Woffy 2. Hancock 3. Zmarzlik 4. Doyle 5. Hampel 6. Pedersen 7. Gollob 8. Sayfutdinov 9. Holder 10. Ward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/4/2021 at 8:50 PM, falcace said: Cheers! It's good work...but I'm still not clear on the criteria? Are British Finals and Swedish Finals given equal "ranking points"? Are Swedish League and British League given equal ranking points? Even to my admittedly biased eyes, this still looks like Mort had a notably better record in the 80s? Also how is Phil Crump no8 in the 80s with just one World Final? the only metric Andersson out performs Mort is performance in world finals. Outside that, Mort won BLRC, inter-continental, world Pairs and WTC titles and had a better BL record. And there is no metric at all which would place Phil Crump in the top ten riders of the 80s, unless we limit to league performances at Blunsdon Rd, or Overseas finals held at Hyde Rd in years ending with an even number... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 No Jan O Pedersen during the 1980s or 1990s? World Champion in 1991, World No 2 in 1986 and World 3 in 1988. Rode in the World Pairs Final twice... and won it twice! Rode in the World Team Cup Final four times... and won it four times! Throw in a BLRC (1988) and various honours with Cradley Heath and surely he should be in there for both decades. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Split Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) Much debate about later decades but not much discussion about what went before. I don't think there's any argument about the top 8 for the 60's although Sjosten and Harrfeldt could possibly be included at 9 and 10. I see that in the 70's and 80's lists, world champions Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Müller are conspicuous by their absence. Edited December 8, 2021 by Split Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 4 hours ago, waiheke1 said: If I refer back to season by season rankings I did a few years back, then the top ten riders based on their best five seasons across the decade were (and noting Penhall rode only in three seasons): Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen, Carter, S Moran, Lee, Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko. You know, that is a good looking top ten... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Split said: Much debate about later decades but not much discussion about what went before. I don't think there's any argument about the top 8 for the 60's although Sjosten and Harrfeldt could possibly be included at 9 and 10. Yes, definitely agree with the top 8. I think the only change I would make is Harrfeldt for Pander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 7 hours ago, waiheke1 said: I'd definitely have PC ahead of Michanek in 3rd. Mike Lee - arguably the best rider in the world in '79- needs to be in there, certainly ahead of Louis. And can't see a good argument for Briggo being on the list. Agree. Still not clear on the criteria used. I can't see how Barry Briggs would qualify for the top 10 either on anything but sentiment. It's got to be a balance between results at the top level and consistency. All that said, one size won't fit all. The BL was the great indicator of a riders standing in the 70s and 80s. Couldn't say that for the last couple of decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted December 8, 2021 Report Share Posted December 8, 2021 7 hours ago, waiheke1 said: If I refer back to season by season rankings I did a few years back, then the top ten riders based on their best five seasons across the decade were (and noting Penhall rode only in three seasons): Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen, Carter, S Moran, Lee, Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko. That list would have Morton (11th), Andersson (13th), Sanders (14th), Crump (17th), Wigg (19th). If you were to base the list on top three seasons (i.e. rewarding “peak performance”) the only change to the riders in the top ten is Jessup in for Ermolenko. Yep,, as much as I'd like to see Mort in the top 10, I've no great argument with that. A very plausible top 10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 9, 2021 Report Share Posted December 9, 2021 7 hours ago, lucifer sam said: No Jan O Pedersen during the 1980s or 1990s? World Champion in 1991, World No 2 in 1986 and World 3 in 1988. Rode in the World Pairs Final twice... and won it twice! Rode in the World Team Cup Final four times... and won it four times! Throw in a BLRC (1988) and various honours with Cradley Heath and surely he should be in there for both decades. Should be in there for both decades, absolutely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 9, 2021 Report Share Posted December 9, 2021 4 hours ago, falcace said: Yep,, as much as I'd like to see Mort in the top 10, I've no great argument with that. A very plausible top 10. Yeah, I'd still have Mort on basis of longevity if I was submitting my own subjective list, probably ahead of Sam. Similarly I'd have Lee ahead of Carter on the basis of his world title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted December 9, 2021 Report Share Posted December 9, 2021 I am interested in your 1930s rankings, BL. Over the course of many years and many books, I have spent a lot of time researching the 1930s, reading the contemporary speedway press. So, my own top 10 is more based on a general feeling from the first hand reports of meetings plus news stories about riders and meetings rather than strictly based on statistics, though, of course, they play a part. On that basis, I have to say I find your inclusion of Jack Parker at no.1 very surprising. My own impression from everything I have read is that the dominant riders who lasted the whole decade were Bluey Wilkinson and Eric Langton. There is then a split between Vic Huxley and Tom Farndon dominating the early part of the decade and the three Americans plus Lionel Van Praag dominating the second half, with riders like Jack Parker, Max Grosskreutz and Frank Charles just a shade behind the dominant riders in each half. On that basis, my Top 10 would be: 1. Bluey Wilkinson 2. Eric Langton 3. Tom Farndon 4. Vic Huxley 5. Jack Milne 6. Cordy Milne 7. Wilbur Lamoreaux 8. Lionel Van Praag 9. Max Grosskreutz. 10. Jack Parker. If you were to include 1928 & 1929 in the decade, Vic Huxley would be no. 1. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 9, 2021 Report Share Posted December 9, 2021 Must say I was surprised Parker was number 1 and even more surprised Grosskreutz wasn’t in there at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 9, 2021 Report Share Posted December 9, 2021 On 12/3/2021 at 3:59 AM, chunky said: What is confusing about my question, Mr Hyam? Suspect he is confused because your question SHOULD have been, why is Mike Bast not in the 70s list... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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