Terry Betts vs Malcolm Simmons

[steve roberts]

Both long associated with King's Lynn but who was the better rider?

Terry achieved a high average for many seasons whereas Malcom was a bit up and down until his move to Poole in 1975.

Strangely Terry only made one World Individual Final (however qualifying from the British Final was no mean feat during the seventies) whereas Malcom made three appearances. Terry won the one World Pairs and a couple of World Cups whereas Malcolm's record is exceptional on that front (three pairs and four team). Perhaps Terry was more team orientated and too laid back for the big occasion? Malcolm was more ruthless.

Terry may well have achieved more on the international stage but his career spanned the period that English riders were making names for themselves having graduated from the old Division Two and perhaps he was pushed out of the limelight?

I guess that it's fair to say that Malcolm was the better all round motorcyclist.

As captains of their respective clubs (King's Lynn and Poole) team honours were a bit short on the ground. Terry led 'Stars' to a KO Cup and ILKO Cup triumph whereas Malcom as a 'Pirate' won nothing...his team successes were achieved early in his career when riding for West Ham.

Edited November 20, 2021 by steve roberts

[customhouseregular]

Malcolm Obviously 

[steve roberts]

29 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

Malcolm Obviously 

Yes I guess that Malcolm would get the vote but Terry was probably more popular with the public due to his easy going attitude?

[BOBBATH]

I'd have to go with Malcolm also.

[chunky]

Let's look at averages..

                  Betts     Simmo
1966         9.41       6.14
1967         9.74       7.09
1968         9.45       9.40
1969         9.35       8.14
1970         9.22       7.58
1971         9.62       9.22
1972        10.51      8.36
1973          9.95     10.26
1974        10.32      9.78
1975          8.87     10.41
1976          9.71     10.17
1977          9.78     10.27      
1978          8.10     10.77
1979          7.75       9.04

The only other year Simmo averaged over 9 in BL was 1980 (9.40). Simmo's short peak was slightly better than Terry's, but his career as a true heat leader was nowhere near as long or consistent. The difference is nowhere near as pronounced as some may think.

As far as World Team Cup, it is hard to judge a rider by team results, and again, it wasn't like they were racing against the world's best in most races.
 

[steve roberts]

20 minutes ago, chunky said:

Let's look at averages..

                  Betts     Simmo
1966         9.41       6.14
1967         9.74       7.09
1968         9.45       9.40
1969         9.35       8.14
1970         9.22       7.58
1971         9.62       9.22
1972        10.51      8.36
1973          9.95     10.26
1974        10.32      9.78
1975          8.87     10.41
1976          9.71     10.17
1977          9.78     10.27      
1978          8.10     10.77
1979          7.75       9.04

The only other year Simmo averaged over 9 in BL was 1980 (9.40). Simmo's short peak was slightly better than Terry's, but his career as a true heat leader was nowhere near as long or consistent. The difference is nowhere near as pronounced as some may think.

As far as World Team Cup, it is hard to judge a rider by team results, and again, it wasn't like they were racing against the world's best in most races.
 

Yes Terry's domestic average looks impressive. As regards Team Cup, however, Terry tended to be overlooked with the rise of the likes of Jessup, Louis and Collins whereas Simmo kept his place on the international stage as he peaked just as England gained supremacy.

[chunky]

2 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Yes Terry's domestic average looks impressive. As regards Team Cup, however, Terry tended to be overlooked with the rise of the likes of Jessup, Louis and Collins whereas Simmo kept his place on the international stage as he peaked just as England gained supremacy.

And Terry could well have achieved more on the international stage, but "Great Britain" was still full of Australasians for most of his peak...

[steve roberts]

39 minutes ago, chunky said:

And Terry could well have achieved more on the international stage, but "Great Britain" was still full of Australasians for most of his peak...

I've always placed Martin Ashby in a similar vein to Terry Betts...consistantly high averages but tended to get overlooked as the rise of the old second division produced an abundance of talent. Stalwarts such as Ray Wilson and Eric Boocock were also victims to a degree however Ray did enjoy some glory moments none more so than when he scored a maximum during the 1971 World Cup representing a Great Britain side as the lone Englishman if I'm correct?

[chunky]

3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I've always placed Martin Ashby in a similar vein to Terry Betts...consistantly high averages but tended to get overlooked as the rise of the old second division produced an abundance of talent. Stalwarts such as Ray Wilson and Eric Boocock were also victims to a degree however Ray did enjoy some glory moments none more so than when he scored a maximum during the 1971 World Cup representing a Great Britain side as the lone Englishman if I'm correct?

You are correct...

I've always maintained that domestically, Eric Boocock was just as good as Ivan or Barry, but he just never did it internationally.

[E I Addio]

On 11/20/2021 at 4:26 PM, chunky said:

Let's look at averages..

                  Betts     Simmo
1966         9.41       6.14
1967         9.74       7.09
1968         9.45       9.40
1969         9.35       8.14
1970         9.22       7.58
1971         9.62       9.22
1972        10.51      8.36
1973          9.95     10.26
1974        10.32      9.78
1975          8.87     10.41
1976          9.71     10.17
1977          9.78     10.27      
1978          8.10     10.77
1979          7.75       9.04

The only other year Simmo averaged over 9 in BL was 1980 (9.40). Simmo's short peak was slightly better than Terry's, but his career as a true heat leader was nowhere near as long or consistent. The difference is nowhere near as pronounced as some may think.

As far as World Team Cup, it is hard to judge a rider by team results, and again, it wasn't like they were racing against the world's best in most races.
 

I don’t really think you can compare any two riders on the basis of averages alone. There are many other relevant factors that determine a riders quality and as a separate issue value to a team.

However the period you are referring to we have to take into account the fact that in those days the Number 1 only faced the opposing number 1 once while the other heatleaders faced them twice, and this could well affect averages. Terry had i5 written into his contract at KL that he would always ride Number 1.

What I think is interesting, and I had never noticed before , is that Betsy had the best average when Simmo was second heatleader at KL. but as soon as Simmo went to Poole as first heatleader he had the higher average.

Having said all that I wouldn’t split them and would have them along with Ray Wilson as first three on the teamsheet for my “GB team of the Early 70’s”

[chunky]

6 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

Having said all that I wouldn’t split them and would have them along with Ray Wilson as first three on the teamsheet for my “GB team of the Early 70’s”

That is my point! The first couple of comments on this thread made it seem like Simmo was clearly the better of the two, but for me, it is nowhere as clear cut as some may feel. Bettsy did have a pretty impressive record...

[steve roberts]

20 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

I don’t really think you can compare any two riders on the basis of averages alone. There are many other relevant factors that determine a riders quality and as a separate issue value to a team.

However the period you are referring to we have to take into account the fact that in those days the Number 1 only faced the opposing number 1 once while the other heatleaders faced them twice, and this could well affect averages. Terry had i5 written into his contract at KL that he would always ride Number 1.

What I think is interesting, and I had never noticed before , is that Betsy had the best average when Simmo was second heatleader at KL. but as soon as Simmo went to Poole as first heatleader he had the higher average.

Having said all that I wouldn’t split them and would have them along with Ray Wilson as first three on the teamsheet for my “GB team of the Early 70’s”

Personally I think this is a view often raised back then however many "Number One's" based on those with the highest average in any given season often rode further down the team order. The likes of Dag Lovaas, Dave Jessup, John Boulger, Billy Sanders, Michael Lee, Phil Crump, Peter Collins etc  rode at either number three or five thereby facing the opposing number one twice. It's something that Malcolm Simmons actually raised in his book in that it was conditioned that he rode at Five as Howard Cole had it stipulated that he would ride at Three which was an easier position as it meant that at least three times he was paired with a reserve.

[fatface]

England		50		Australia		28
	1 Ray Wilson ©	2 , 2 , 3 , 1	8		1 Phil Crump	3 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 2	13
	2 Martin Ashby	1', 1', 1 , 2'	5 + 3		2 Bob Valentine	0 , 1', 2', 1 , 0	4 + 2
	3 Peter Collins	3 , 2', 2 , 1	8 + 1		3 John Boulger ©	1 , 3 , 0 , 0 , R	4
	4 Dave Jessup	2', 0 , 2', 3	7 + 2		4 Phil Herne	0 , 0 , - , -	0
	5 John Louis	3 , 3 , 3 , 3	12		5 Billy Sanders	1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 2	6
	6 Malcolm Simmons	3 , 2', 3	8 + 1		6 Garry Middleton	R , 0 , -	0
	7 Terry Betts	2', 0 , 0	2 + 1		7 Bob Humphreys	1 , 0 , -	1
	Against possibly the strongest England team of all time, Australia had little chance of victory but often outgated the home country. But Crump received little support from both ex-Leicester rider Boulger and Sanders

Saw this on the excellent info site www.internationalspeedway.co.uk with quite a big statement thrown in over this being the strongest England team of all-time at an international match at Leicester in 1975. But you know what, it probably was. All world class and all at - or very near - their peak. Useful reserve pairing too. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by falcace

[steve roberts]

13 hours ago, falcace said:

England		50		Australia		28
	1 Ray Wilson ©	2 , 2 , 3 , 1	8		1 Phil Crump	3 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 2	13
	2 Martin Ashby	1', 1', 1 , 2'	5 + 3		2 Bob Valentine	0 , 1', 2', 1 , 0	4 + 2
	3 Peter Collins	3 , 2', 2 , 1	8 + 1		3 John Boulger ©	1 , 3 , 0 , 0 , R	4
	4 Dave Jessup	2', 0 , 2', 3	7 + 2		4 Phil Herne	0 , 0 , - , -	0
	5 John Louis	3 , 3 , 3 , 3	12		5 Billy Sanders	1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 2	6
	6 Malcolm Simmons	3 , 2', 3	8 + 1		6 Garry Middleton	R , 0 , -	0
	7 Terry Betts	2', 0 , 0	2 + 1		7 Bob Humphreys	1 , 0 , -	1
	Against possibly the strongest England team of all time, Australia had little chance of victory but often outgated the home country. But Crump received little support from both ex-Leicester rider Boulger and Sanders

Saw this on the excellent info site www.internationalspeedway.co.uk with quite a big statement thrown in over this being the strongest England team of all-time at an international match at Leicester in 1975. But you know what, it probably was. All world class and all at - or very near - their peak. Useful reserve pairing too. 

...and to think we soon had the likes of Lee, Kennett, Davis, Morton etc to add to that list. England certainly ruled the world during the seventies especially when discussing test/team affairs. Okay we suffered a few blips at WTC level but that was more about complacency and the formula did tend to allow for shock and/or unexpected results.

Edited November 22, 2021 by steve roberts

[E I Addio]

13 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...and to think we soon had the likes of Lee, Kennett, Davis, Morton etc to add to that list. England certainly ruled the world during the seventies especially when discussing test/team affairs. Okay we suffered a few blips at WTC level but that was more about complacency and the formula did tend to allow for shock and/or unexpected results.

The thing that amazes me in most of these discussions is why Bob Kirby never really cut it at the highest level. An outstanding and consistent rider  for years at league level  and more than a match for the  England stars, yet he never really seemed to perform at his best in England colours.
 

[iris123]

19 hours ago, falcace said:

England		50		Australia		28
	1 Ray Wilson ©	2 , 2 , 3 , 1	8		1 Phil Crump	3 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 2	13
	2 Martin Ashby	1', 1', 1 , 2'	5 + 3		2 Bob Valentine	0 , 1', 2', 1 , 0	4 + 2
	3 Peter Collins	3 , 2', 2 , 1	8 + 1		3 John Boulger ©	1 , 3 , 0 , 0 , R	4
	4 Dave Jessup	2', 0 , 2', 3	7 + 2		4 Phil Herne	0 , 0 , - , -	0
	5 John Louis	3 , 3 , 3 , 3	12		5 Billy Sanders	1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 2	6
	6 Malcolm Simmons	3 , 2', 3	8 + 1		6 Garry Middleton	R , 0 , -	0
	7 Terry Betts	2', 0 , 0	2 + 1		7 Bob Humphreys	1 , 0 , -	1
	Against possibly the strongest England team of all time, Australia had little chance of victory but often outgated the home country. But Crump received little support from both ex-Leicester rider Boulger and Sanders

Saw this on the excellent info site www.internationalspeedway.co.uk with quite a big statement thrown in over this being the strongest England team of all-time at an international match at Leicester in 1975. But you know what, it probably was. All world class and all at - or very near - their peak. Useful reserve pairing too. 

Well i saw the excellent England v Poland meeting at Hackney the year before with basically the same team.....Barry Thomas of course in for his home track knowledge. When England 5-1'd Poland each and every heat apart from one

Edited November 22, 2021 by iris123

[steve roberts]

5 hours ago, E I Addio said:

The thing that amazes me in most of these discussions is why Bob Kirby never really cut it at the highest level. An outstanding and consistent rider  for years at league level  and more than a match for the  England stars, yet he never really seemed to perform at his best in England colours.
 

Remember Bob Kilby joning the "Rebels" in a complicated move involving himself Garry Middleton and Tony Lomas in 1973. Prior to joining Oxford he received a nasty knee injury when involved in a crash with Chris Pusey. When he moved to Cowley he showed only glimpses of his previous form before he had to admit defeat and have surgery done. In 1974 he got back to some sort of form but never reached the heights of 1972 although he put in further sterling service after he moved back to Swindon...and Oxford were 'done out' of a transfer fee in the process!

[Bruiser]

I only started going in 1978 so probably saw the best of Simmons and worst of Betts as obviously Betts was well on the slide by then….so in my era it was definitely Simmons but I’d like to have seen Betts earlier on

[Chadster]

On 11/21/2021 at 6:20 PM, E I Addio said:

 

However the period you are referring to we have to take into account the fact that in those days the Number 1 only faced the opposing number 1 once while the other heatleaders faced them twice, and this could well affect averages. Terry had i5 written into his contract at KL that he would always ride Number 1.

 

According to the Speedway Researcher, the first season when Terry Betts rode regularly at number 1 for Kings Lynn was 1970, when his average was lower than 1969 when he started the season at 3 and ended it at 5. So much for number 1 being the easier position.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Chadster

[E I Addio]

8 minutes ago, Chadster said:

According to the Speedway Researcher, the first season when Terry Betts rode regularly at number 1 for Kings Lynn was 1970, which is lower than 1969 when he started the season at 3 and ended it at 5.

I took the information from Malcolm Simmons himself when interviewed on his DVD . I can only presume he was talking about the period when Terry became the regular No1.