British Speedway statement

[ch958]

18 minutes ago, Trees said:

Who's calculated how many riders we have in the UK who would be of high enough standard to be in one big league, how many riders could each team have?

4?

5?

no 6 wd be fine but there wd be riders with no chance of beating the heat leaders

like it was in the 60s and 70s when ht leaders had 9 plus averages because the opposition had riders unable to beat them

seemed to work ok then

[cowboy cookie returns?]

28 minutes ago, mikebv said:

You are correct.. 

It is quite incredible really that those outside looking in can often see so much potential in the sport if only if was "ran properly" like other team sports...

Whilst those within the "speedway bubble" seem not to see anything other than the 'same old, same old' as the ONLY way forwards...

(Or ultimately backwards as sadly the reality appears to often be)...

So much potential (as FIM meetings ran in the UK shows)..

But destined to remain unfulfilled l fear....

I've been doing a little research and revisiting old meetings thanks to you tube to try and get some sort of handle as to the state of UK speedway.

My conclusion is pretty much of today's issues around the BSPA (L) bubble has existed for years.

A flick though some old speedway star/mail from the era I got involved in the sport the late 80s give a pretty similar view of the problems that still exist today infighting one upmanship unable to look outside the bubble. Couple this with a recent re-read of the John Berry books all seem to lend weight to the conclusion that nothing has been down to move the sport forward in fact it's gone backwards or to rid it of the internal politics that in the end will see it collapse.

So how after 35-40 does the sport still have the same issues most of the promotors from then aren't around now in yet the same old issues are still present

Now viewing some old meetings from Wimbledon in 89 on you tube shows the good and the bad & ultimately what is still an issue today.

Firstly the presenter Dave Lanning one of the best and his introductions, in heat commentary while also winding up the opposition all first class and would work today.

However even in 89 the marching music and the records played between heats were massively outdated.

Is there a solution or some form of saviour?

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by cowboy cookie returns?
Wrong

[Trees]

Give commentary a go, would help with atmosphere imo ....

[Pieman72]

I think a completely new set up is the best way and leave the BSPL to own their mess.

[phillwhitewasmad]

29 minutes ago, Pieman72 said:

I think a completely new set up is the best way and leave the BSPL to own their mess.

Can't see that happening. If it's that bad why are both returning clubs looking at running under the Bspl 

[Speedtiger]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

You are correct.. 

It is quite incredible really that those outside looking in can often see so much potential in the sport if only if was "ran properly" like other team sports...

Whilst those within the "speedway bubble" seem not to see anything other than the 'same old, same old' as the ONLY way forwards...

(Or ultimately backwards as sadly the reality appears to often be)...

So much potential (as FIM meetings ran in the UK shows)..

But destined to remain unfulfilled l fear....

Agreed but my main point is, contrary to outsiders looking in or getting in to the sport, there’s no simple silver bullet that will fix speedway. If there was even the clueless clowns like Chapman and Godfrey would find it!!! The problems effecting the terminal decline of British speedway are far more complex and to suggest that it’s a simple solution, as AS suggests in the BV program article just highlights the palpable nonsense that’s put out. The bv management are running a club that’s loosing hundreds of thousands of pounds per season so if it was that simple surely they would easily fix that financial mess!

[Halifaxtiger]

8 hours ago, Speedtiger said:

Agreed but my main point is, contrary to outsiders looking in or getting in to the sport, there’s no simple silver bullet that will fix speedway. If there was even the clueless clowns like Chapman and Godfrey would find it!!! The problems effecting the terminal decline of British speedway are far more complex and to suggest that it’s a simple solution, as AS suggests in the BV program article just highlights the palpable nonsense that’s put out. The bv management are running a club that’s loosing hundreds of thousands of pounds per season so if it was that simple surely they would easily fix that financial mess!

Dead right 

I am a big fan of Adrian Smith but while what he is saying would definitely be a step in the right direction it would be most optimistic to believe it would be a solution to speedway's problems. 

I should say I don't believe speedway is in terminal decline - the fact that Oxford are re-opening this season after a considerable absence and that there are those trying to keep Birmingham open suggests that individuals will always appear to keep it going. Sick ward, definitely, but not terminal. 

I also suspect that while Belle Vue are losing money it is not on the scale you suggest. Even the pockets of Messrs Rice and Southwell aren't deep enough to cope with those sort of losses even if they were prepared to accept them. 

[Halifaxtiger]

8 hours ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Can't see that happening. If it's that bad why are both returning clubs looking at running under the Bspl 

Because in reality there is no credible alternative for a league structure. Clubs have very little choice but to stay put, as bad as it maybe. 

However, one club has broken away and done so very successfully, something that will have been noted by the others. 

[phillwhitewasmad]

2 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Because in reality there is no credible alternative for a league structure. Clubs have very little choice but to stay put, as bad as it maybe. 

However, one club has broken away and done so very successfully, something that will have been noted by the others. 

Agreed I do wonder though if the returning clubs had any talks with the breakaway club about the potential of a small mini league to form the basis of a league 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by phillwhitewasmad

[Speedtiger]

3 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Dead right 

I am a big fan of Adrian Smith but while what he is saying would definitely be a step in the right direction it would be most optimistic to believe it would be a solution to speedway's problems. 

I should say I don't believe speedway is in terminal decline - the fact that Oxford are re-opening this season after a considerable absence and that there are those trying to keep Birmingham open suggests that individuals will always appear to keep it going. Sick ward, definitely, but not terminal. 

I also suspect that while Belle Vue are losing money it is not on the scale you suggest. Even the pockets of Messrs Rice and Southwell aren't deep enough to cope with those sort of losses even if they were prepared to accept them. 

You only need to look on Company house web site and the true eye watering figures are there for all to see.

The prime objective in running any business is to make a profit and I suspect there’s very few if any PL clubs or CL clubs for that matter are making money and that’s why they go out of business and the current number of clubs is at an all time low, eg top league with only six teams is a joke! As things are British speedway is unsustainable and if things don’t change it will remain unsustainable. Sadly I believe things won’t change and the terminal decline will continue. 
I take your fare point about Oxford and it’s a little bit of good news and I really hope they make it work, but time will tell. Birmingham, well good luck with that!

[Halifaxtiger]

2 hours ago, Speedtiger said:

You only need to look on Company house web site and the true eye watering figures are there for all to see.

The prime objective in running any business is to make a profit and I suspect there’s very few if any PL clubs or CL clubs for that matter are making money and that’s why they go out of business and the current number of clubs is at an all time low, eg top league with only six teams is a joke! As things are British speedway is unsustainable and if things don’t change it will remain unsustainable. Sadly I believe things won’t change and the terminal decline will continue. 
I take your fare point about Oxford and it’s a little bit of good news and I really hope they make it work, but time will tell. Birmingham, well good luck with that!

It maybe that you can see something I can't but only balance sheets are on company house, not profit/loss.  The only thing I can work out is that Belle Vue  liabilities are increasing by pushing £100k per season. 

Speedway is no different to other sports in that although clubs are run as businesses there is very often no expectation of making money and they are, as such, a personal hobby for a wealthy individual (or individuals). 

As an example, in 2018/19 Ipswich Town made a loss of £3m pre tax (4 championship clubs were in the black, 16 in the red, with only 1 lower than Ipswich). Their average gate was just short of 18,000. If Belle Vue get 1,200, then their loss by the same ratio should be £200k when it is probably half that.

The problem comes, then,  not when a loss is made but when that loss is unsustainable either because the owner can't afford the amount concerned or because he can but is unwilling to do so. 

What I think is true is that clubs have closed not because they are losing money, but because they are losing too much(which, to be fair, isn't much different to what you have suggested). 

I agree about Birmingham; it has a very chequered past and will take a real optimist with deep pockets to get involved. However, perhaps to prove my point that speedway will carry on there is also a new track being built at Workington with the possibility of NDL racing next season.  

 

[Pieman72]

7 hours ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Agreed I do wonder though if the returning clubs had any talks with the breakaway club about the potential of a small mini league to form the basis of a league 

 

If there is an alternative to the massive financial commitment of league speedway then it's a positive way forward for amateur or semi-professional to operate on an Isle of Wight style model similar to grasstrack. I'd happy to watch speedway of any form if it's affordable and well organised. We've had some fantastic days out watching grasstrack as it's so interesting such a variety and open to all ages and genders.

[mikebv]

3 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

It maybe that you can see something I can't but only balance sheets are on company house, not profit/loss.  The only thing I can work out is that Belle Vue  liabilities are increasing by pushing £100k per season. 

Speedway is no different to other sports in that although clubs are run as businesses there is very often no expectation of making money and they are, as such, a personal hobby for a wealthy individual (or individuals). 

As an example, in 2018/19 Ipswich Town made a loss of £3m pre tax (4 championship clubs were in the black, 16 in the red, with only 1 lower than Ipswich). Their average gate was just short of 18,000. If Belle Vue get 1,200, then their loss by the same ratio should be £200k when it is probably half that.

The problem comes, then,  not when a loss is made but when that loss is unsustainable either because the owner can't afford the amount concerned or because he can but is unwilling to do so. 

What I think is true is that clubs have closed not because they are losing money, but because they are losing too much(which, to be fair, isn't much different to what you have suggested). 

I agree about Birmingham; it has a very chequered past and will take a real optimist with deep pockets to get involved. However, perhaps to prove my point that speedway will carry on there is also a new track being built at Workington with the possibility of NDL racing next season.  

 

That NDL racing that had an operating model that seemed to bring on newly opened tracks so much they "progressed" to level two, and also seemed to be a profitable proposition for those who did move "up" or stayed put at that level?

As has been said often, that level should form the basis "core" of UK Speedway with a 2nd tier running with around 10 clubs at (old) "NDL Plus/Championship Lite" standard..

"If it's NOT broken then break it"..

Another new adage from the Sport..

I remember on the Newcastle thread someone publishing the accounts for one of their recent seasons, and their outgoings were truly eye watering for (no disrespect), a track that doesnt usually attract top level riders given their Sunday race day, and are often mid to lower mid table in the 2nd Division...

Living in this "hand to mouth/will they see the season out or wont they?" existence cannot do the sport any favours, particularly as you are never focused on its development or progression, but instead just on its survival.. 

You would think that at least for one season all would come together, agree a "lower level", and agree a total payroll spend for each club and then using some of the money saved, which they currently pretty much "waste for zero return", actually deliver a joined up, collective marketing campaign which can move the whole entity forward..

They seem collectively to spend literally millions for next to nothing in return..

All very strange...

[Humphrey Appleby]

3 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Speedway is no different to other sports in that although clubs are run as businesses there is very often no expectation of making money and they are, as such, a personal hobby for a wealthy individual (or individuals). 

As an example, in 2018/19 Ipswich Town made a loss of £3m pre tax (4 championship clubs were in the black, 16 in the red, with only 1 lower than Ipswich). Their average gate was just short of 18,000. If Belle Vue get 1,200, then their loss by the same ratio should be £200k when it is probably half that.

The difference between football and speedway is that there's usually plenty of other mugs willing to do a wedge once the previous owners have tired of losing so much money, or have simply run out of it. And as clubs fall down the divisions, there's plenty of others behind them in the pyramid to replace them. 

Just because Ipswich and most other football clubs are perpetually run at a loss, that's hardly a recipe for speedway or indeed any other sport to follow. Indeed, speedway simply hasn't got that luxury as there aren't queues of wealthy backers lining up to take over tracks, and there's also really nowhere for them to fall except out of the sport completely.

The sport needs to be run in a sustainable way, not as an expensive hobby for the local businessmen who's made a few bob...

Edited November 17, 2021 by Humphrey Appleby

[Halifaxtiger]

19 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The difference between football and speedway is that there's usually plenty of other mugs willing to do a wedge once the previous owners has tired of losing so much money. And as clubs fall down the divisions, there's plenty of others in the pyramid to replace them. 

Just because Ipswich and most other football clubs are perpetually run at a loss, that's hardly a recipe for speedway or indeed any other sport to follow. Indeed, speedway simply hasn't got that luxury as there aren't queues of wealthy backers lining up to take over tracks, and there's also really nowhere for them to fall except out of the sport completely.

The sport needs to be run in a sustainable way, not as an expensive hobby for the local businessmen who's made a few bob...

I'm not sure that's totally true, Humph. Birmingham's losses last season were awful, yet even now there is a consortium attempting to take over. Eastbourne closed for financial reasons, yet they will apparently be back in 2023. Workington - who also lost a shed load in their last few years - are planning to be ready for 2022 and there clearly wasn't a queue for Derby County.

I also think you have to consider that funding a speedway track is likely to be an awful lot less expensive than paying for a football team, so you don't need quite so much cash.

In recent years. huge amounts have been poured into places like Belle Vue and Glasgow, while my suspicion is that tracks like Scunthorpe and King's Lynn use other activities at their stadiums to subsidise speedway to a degree.    

Its very difficult to disagree that speedway should be run in a sustainable way, but the question must be asked as to whether running based solely upon income generated is a realistic possibility for most teams.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Halifaxtiger

[phillwhitewasmad]

3 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I'm not sure that's totally true, Humph. Birmingham's losses last season were awful, yet even now there is a consortium attempting to take over. Eastbourne closed for financial reasons, yet they will apparently be back in 2023. Workington - who also lost a shed load in their last few years - are planning to be ready for 2022 and there clearly wasn't a queue for Derby County.

I also think you have to consider that funding a speedway track is likely to be an awful lot less expensive than paying for a football team, so you don't need quite so much cash.

In recent years. huge amounts have been poured into places like Belle Vue and Glasgow, while my suspicion is that tracks like Scunthorpe and King's Lynn use other activities at their stadiums to subsidise speedway to a degree.    

Its very difficult to disagree that speedway should be run in a sustainable way, but the question must be asked as to whether running based solely upon income generated is a realistic possibility for most teams.

 

 

Think Rob has openly said that without all the other stuff that goes on at Scunthorpe speedway would not be viable on its own

[speedwaysliders]

Someone ,somewhere has to get speedway on normal TV.The amount of people that dont know about the speedway product is mind blowing.Also we need more people like Matt Ford,who has bust a gut to get speedway fans into the stadium,other people just expect the crowds to come in auto mode.!!!

[Humphrey Appleby]

35 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I also think you have to consider that funding a speedway track is likely to be an awful lot less expensive than paying for a football team, so you don't need quite so much cash.

Sure, but you're also far less likely to get a really wealthy backer in the sport, which in turn means the likelihood of turning the sport around or even making stadiums fit for human habitation is pretty slim. It's one thing to lose money whilst you're still basking in winning the FA Cup or something, but whatever passes for the Speedway Star Knockout Cup these days doesn't have quite the same prestige or reflected glory.

It is somewhat surprising what has been invested in a couple of speedway tracks in the current climate, but the calamitous loss of teams would suggest speedway is not an attractive proposition for many. 

[Sotonian]

4 minutes ago, speedwaysliders said:

Someone ,somewhere has to get speedway on normal TV.The amount of people that dont know about the speedway product is mind blowing.Also we need more people like Matt Ford,who has bust a gut to get speedway fans into the stadium,other people just expect the crowds to come in auto mode.!!!

Isn't Quest 'normal TV' then?

[mikebv]

30 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Think Rob has openly said that without all the other stuff that goes on at Scunthorpe speedway would not be viable on its own

It is an incredible business plan for so many isnt it?

Knowing (and pro actively planning) that you will lose money on the thing you are selling as costs will be a fair old way in excess of income.. 

Therefore, you rely on subsidies from others, or your own other business interests to offset those costs..

But yet you do fundamentally exactly the same thing, year in, year out, and never actually make any tangible lasting changes or improvements to your business as "getting through" is your major measure of attainment.. 

Pumping an incredible amount of money into a sport which is followed each week track side by how many? 20,000 or so max in the whole of the nation? 

An incredible amount that achieves virtually nothing in pushing the sport, and thus their own businesses, forward..

You have to admire their dedication but at the same time, question their operating and business plan as both are a  long way away from being good enough for the purpose of running a professional team sport...

There MUST be another way surely where all work together to reduce costs and all then benefit collectively to invest in the sports future..?