BV66 Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 010.3 Rule quoted in previous posts is the key factor as to whether BV have broken any rule. What actually is the start of the season ? in my view it is the first official meeting of the new season be it Cup or League. Therefore BV have broken the rules. Surely if they get away with this, this season everyone will follow suit next year, and put a trial rider in at the start, and change it if they are not successful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 1 hour ago, tocha said: Well that's how I read it. On a more general note it would be helpful to know why this rule has been introduced, for what purpose and why it is restricted to just the Premiership. Restrictions on late season signings have been around for a long time, but the big impetus for more extensive restrictions came from Belle Vue fans after Wolves signed Tai Woffinden for the play-offs in 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTT Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 RULE 012.4 A certain Premiership team can make up their own rules as they go along if they wish to do so. RULE 012.5 All other Premiership teams must abide by the rules that were set at the AGM. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregoryM Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 1 hour ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: Which by that means Allen can't be replaced as he is not injured...... He was in the declaration prior to the start of the season therefore the regulations should apply As at least one other poster has said that allowing a rider to be signed for 28 days doesn't seem to fit with the 25% rule. He is right, and you are right about Jake Allen not being injured. His short term contract (presumably ratified as such by the authorities?) has expired though. So, is there anything written in another rule which compels Belle Vue to offer another contract to and retain Jake? What happens if Belle Vue chose to, or were compelled to, offer Jake a new contract, but he didn't want to stay? Surely there ought to be a water-tight rule to cover all scenarios surrounding short-term signings which also wouldn't conflict with the other rules? This would then end at least end all speculation, though it'd be one less issue to debate on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndbendbeerhut Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 1 hour ago, GregoryM said: As at least one other poster has said that allowing a rider to be signed for 28 days doesn't seem to fit with the 25% rule. He is right, and you are right about Jake Allen not being injured. His short term contract (presumably ratified as such by the authorities?) has expired though. So, is there anything written in another rule which compels Belle Vue to offer another contract to and retain Jake? What happens if Belle Vue chose to, or were compelled to, offer Jake a new contract, but he didn't want to stay? Surely there ought to be a water-tight rule to cover all scenarios surrounding short-term signings which also wouldn't conflict with the other rules? This would then end at least end all speculation, though it'd be one less issue to debate on here. So maybe all riders should be signed on 28 day contracts in future... Nothing in rules to say this not allowed and then a team can make as many changes as they wish... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedyOne Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, tocha said: The rules just say this: 010.3 TEAM DECLARATIONS Teams must be declared prior to the start of the season. 012.2 A Premiership Transfer Window opens after 25% of the League fixtures are complete and closes when 75% of League fixtures are complete. This permits changes to the team on 2 occasions, except for proven long term injury. It doesn't say anything about being able to change the initial declaration prior to the league campaign. Just shows how badly the rules are written. Regarding the "Transfer Window" it says "This permits changes to the team on 2 occasions, except for proven long term injury." So if you read that as written, it says you can change the team on 2 occasions... but not if you've got a proven long term injury. If you've got a proven long term injury you can't change the team at all! Also what is meant by 2 occasions? Can you change all 7 riders, and then change all 7 riders again on the second occasion? Or can you only change 1 rider on each of the two occasions? can you combine the two occasions and make a double change? It's not clear. If transfers are banned during the first 25% of league fixtures and during the last 25% of league fixtures, then surely BV are in the right to change the declaration before embarking on their first league match? If the League Cup matches are included in the tranfer ban, why aren't they included in the 25% count? The fact that the League Cup is not included in the 25% suggests they are not included in the transfer ban. 3 hours ago, BV66 said: What actually is the start of the season ? When is the start of the season for NDL teams to declare? Because at the moment Leicester only have 6 riders. It's widely known that they will be adding Max Perry this Friday when he turns 15, and becomes eligible...(In fact the BSPL website currently has him listed illegally) but at the moment they only have 6 riders. Should they have declared a 7th rider before March 15th only to kick him out without turning a wheel when Max Perry is 15? Edited April 27, 2022 by SpeedyOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipswichwitches Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 9 minutes ago, SpeedyOne said: Just shows how badly the rules are written. Regarding the "Transfer Window" it says "This permits changes to the team on 2 occasions, except for proven long term injury." So if you read that as written, it says you can change the team on 2 occasions... but not if you've got a proven long term injury. If you've got a proven long term injury you can't change the team at all! Also what is meant by 2 occasions? Can you change all 7 riders, and then change all 7 riders again on the second occasion? Or can you only change 1 rider on each of the two occasions? can you combine the two occasions and make a double change? It's not clear. If transfers are banned during the first 25% of league fixtures and during the last 25% of league fixtures, then surely BV are in the right to change the declaration before embarking on their first league match? If the League Cup matches are included in the tranfer ban, why aren't they included in the 25% count? The fact that the League Cup is not included in the 25% suggests they are not included in the transfer ban. When is the start of the season for NDL teams to declare? Because at the moment Leicester only have 6 riders. It's widely known that they will be adding Max Perry this Friday when he turns 15, and becomes eligible...(In fact the BSPL website currently has him listed illegally) but at the moment they only have 6 riders. Should they have declared a 7th rider before March 15th only to kick him out without turning a wheel when Max Perry is 15? It certainly does show how badly worded this rule is (and many others have been in the past). Therein lies the issue. We fans can interpret this particular rule in many ways but until someone official clarifies what it actually means, the speculation will continue. My 2 pennies worth of interpretation is that the first transfer window open after 25% of all league fixtures have been completed. As this has not yet been achieved, then there is no transfer window open so no team changes are allowed and you have to persevere with the 1 to 7 you started the season with. If riders are signed on temporary contracts, then those contracts should be valid until the transfer window opens and a replacement on a permanent contract (whatever one of those is) is signed. Incidentally, you could argue that all riders are on temporary contracts as they're only valid March to October inclusive. With regards to the 2 occasions, I read this as you can replace as many riders as you wish on 2 separate occasions during the window. In effect you could replace all of your initial 7 with a new 7 (all at the same time) and then replace that 7 with another new 7 (all at the same time) during the window. However, if the 2 occasions have been used up during the window and you have a long term injury happen, then a further replacement is allowed. As has been said, a poorly worded rule that is open to many interpretations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BV66 Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 Lemon could become the Baldrick of speedway, with his cunning plans. After the failed plans re Woofinden & Bewley, he signed Jake Allen on a 28 days contract. This must have been sanctioned by the BSPA as it was mentioned on the website. The authorities knowing full well that it was more than likely that Jake would be replaced after the 28 days, so I assume their interpretation of the start of the season is the beginning of the League campaign. They should have adjusted the rules when they introduced the new cup competition, to make things less ambiguous, but that is the norm for the BSPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKYLANE Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 It is strange that Belle Vue ,Speedway star and Discovery have all announced the signing of Zagar whereas nothing on the Bspl web site This is alarming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 54 minutes ago, KIRKYLANE said: It is strange that Belle Vue ,Speedway star and Discovery have all announced the signing of Zagar whereas nothing on the Bspl web site This is alarming Not really... If the Aces get stopped from using Zagar they just need to threaten to tarmac the track.. It's worked before for another team..... UK Speedway and it's ambiguous rules.... FWIW. For me. It could be that the league is regarded as "the league" and the cup has been regarded as "the cup", so the 25% of the meetings go from the league start... Or... Jake Allen was an 28 day emergency signing (in the interests of Speedway of course), which meant he couldn't stay on whether he did superbly well or not.... Or something like that anyway...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 As usual it's a rule which is far from clear and could be interpreted a dozen different ways and you can understand why some might be disgruntled by the signing. For me it's ok because Allen was declared as a temporary signing, because the league hasn't started and because Zagar enhances the product and will put more bums on seats. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Bagpuss said: As usual it's a rule which is far from clear and could be interpreted a dozen different ways and you can understand why some might be disgruntled by the signing. For me it's ok because Allen was declared as a temporary signing, because the league hasn't started and because Zagar enhances the product and will put more bums on seats. Spot on... The Aces team is within the average that all teams should be built to so no issues at all... The sport hamstrings itself with all sort of nonsense and given the rules it allows to be used it almost commits Harakiri rather than giving itself an opportunity to be taken seriously... The more "top riders" over here the better, and everyone seems to recognise that more riders are needed, so getting more quality over here has to be the perfect solution to that problem.... If they ever want the sport to be taken seriously then EVERY team should make whatever changes they want as long as it comes within whatever the designated average is.... If that means seven changes after a month then so be it... If nothing else it means that the League is seen as something worth winning rather than "as long as we win at home" being the mantra... Use the League Cup as a competition to assess how you are doing then (if you wish), make as many changes as you want (depending on the average allowed and rider availability of course) for the "main show".... Edited April 27, 2022 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Stanton Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, mikebv said: Spot on... The Aces team is within the average that all teams should be built to so no issues at all... The sport hamstrings itself with all sort of nonsense and given the rules it allows to be used it almost commits Harakiri rather than giving itself an opportunity to be taken seriously... The more "top riders" over here the better, and everyone seems to recognise that more riders are needed, so getting more quality over here has to be the perfect solution to that problem.... If they ever want the sport to be taken seriously then EVERY team should make whatever changes they want as long as it comes within whatever the designated average is.... If that means seven changes after a month then so be it... If nothing else it means that the League is seen as something worth winning rather than "as long as we win at home" being the mantra... Use the League Cup as a competition to assess how you are doing then (if you wish), make as many changes as you want (depending on the average allowed and rider availability of course) for the "main show".... The first bit in bold is completely irrelevant Mike. Any change that has ever been made at any point during any season, would have still fell within the points limit. This isn’t the point. The second bit in bold, I completely agree with you on, although there should definitely be a cut off point to stop things happening like the Woffinden to Wolves thing a few years ago. Edited April 27, 2022 by Arch Stanton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted April 27, 2022 Report Share Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said: The first bit in bold is completely irrelevant Mike. Any change that has ever been made at any point during any season, would have still fell within the points limit. This isn’t the point. The second bit in bold, I completely agree with you on, although there should definitely be a cut off point to stop things happening like the Woffinden to Wolves thing a few years ago. But the first point is relevant because, for example, you could have two riders eg Woffy and Pedersen, doing a shared job for a team... With both coming under the average set individually but not together... The result being we get to see the very top riders over here, with these riders happy to take the extra rides which don't over stretch them... Klindt is now avaialble so any team who want to have him should be allowed to bring him in as long as they keep within the average limit designated for this season. .. No need for waiting for 'x' matches, get as many of the better riders in as and when they want to ride.. As, if nothing else, that increases the amount of options for the teams as riders who get replaced, become available. .. 100% re Woffy coming in so late in the season when you have a competiton with play offs.. There should maybe be a minimum amount of meetings ridden by the individual to be eligible to ride in the play offs... Or a cut off date to be riding for that team around mid season ... Edited April 27, 2022 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted April 28, 2022 Report Share Posted April 28, 2022 If the rule was to mean 25% of a teams meetings it would have said 25% of a teams meetings. It says 25% of league meetings because it only means league meeting. It’s not ambiguous at all as long as you’re not trying to bend things around to suit a weird BSF point of view. I still think we should have announced Zagar in March and ran RR for him as Ipswich (to name one) did last year against, well you can guess who against. It’s not within the rules and you have to get your committee buddies to ok it but one for all and all for one - who am I kidding. Incredible that The Aces once again abide by the rules yet get berated while other teams continually flout them with next to no comment. Still it’s not as though many people are watching, now why is that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocha Posted April 28, 2022 Report Share Posted April 28, 2022 30 minutes ago, ouch said: If the rule was to mean 25% of a teams meetings it would have said 25% of a teams meetings. It says 25% of league meetings because it only means league meeting. It’s not ambiguous at all as long as you’re not trying to bend things around to suit a weird BSF point of view. I still think we should have announced Zagar in March and ran RR for him as Ipswich (to name one) did last year against, well you can guess who against. It’s not within the rules and you have to get your committee buddies to ok it but one for all and all for one - who am I kidding. Incredible that The Aces once again abide by the rules yet get berated while other teams continually flout them with next to no comment. Still it’s not as though many people are watching, now why is that? It is up to the MC to explain what they mean but this is what they have said: 'A Premiership Transfer Window opens after 25% of the League fixtures are complete and closes when 75% of League fixtures are complete. This permits changes to the team on 2 occasions, except for proven long term injury.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocha Posted April 28, 2022 Report Share Posted April 28, 2022 12 hours ago, Arch Stanton said: The first bit in bold is completely irrelevant Mike. Any change that has ever been made at any point during any season, would have still fell within the points limit. This isn’t the point. The second bit in bold, I completely agree with you on, although there should definitely be a cut off point to stop things happening like the Woffinden to Wolves thing a few years ago. There has been since 2017. No team changes may be made after 28th August. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch Stanton Posted April 28, 2022 Report Share Posted April 28, 2022 34 minutes ago, tocha said: There has been since 2017. No team changes may be made after 28th August. I know tocha I didn’t maybe word that right. I meant that rule should continue to be in place. Wouldn’t be against it being earlier either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted April 28, 2022 Report Share Posted April 28, 2022 I’ve just emailed them on BSF behalf. When you say league fixtures do you mean league fixtures or something different than league fixtures, it’s just that putting league fixtures has led some to believe you don’t mean league fixtures. It might be better if you put “ league fixtures and we really really really mean just league fixtures” in future to lessen the percentage of BSF members who cannot work out you mean league fixtures. There would still be around 60% of BSF members unsure if you meant league fixtures even if you added the really really really bit. Just while I’ve got you can I check if the 2022 regulations are for the 2022 season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyderd Posted April 28, 2022 Report Share Posted April 28, 2022 2 hours ago, tocha said: It is up to the MC to explain what they mean but this is what they have said: 'A Premiership Transfer Window opens after 25% of the League fixtures are complete and closes when 75% of League fixtures are complete. This permits changes to the team on 2 occasions, except for proven long term injury.' As the league fixtures have not yet started, the rule won't apply, as Ouch has already explained, Zagar signed before the league begins so no rules have been Broken. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.