Andrew Edwards Book & Peter Collins

[Guest]

Yes you’re right Steve, I forgot about the indoor scene!

[fatface]

On 12/17/2021 at 7:33 PM, prodons said:

Seems harsh to tar Andy Campbell with the same brush as Bernie Collier and Mark Crang but I agree with the overall sentiment.

Whereas Collier and Crang were NL reserves at best, Campbell on his day was an NL heat leader and a BL second string.

We expected him to be our star signing back in 1988 but it didn’t quite work out that way.

Yep. Stuart Bamforth is remembered as the man who sold Hyde Road....there are more layers to the story than that of course. But you couldn't accuse him of not trying to win with Belle Vue. He spent big on Mark Courtney, Carl Blackbird, Andy Campbell and Paul Thorp in a short space of time....and they were all the right riders to buy - at that time, they were all really promising English riders. Thorpy worked out the best. Blackbird and Courtney could and should have done better. But Andy Campbell, you could tell he tried really hard, but he just wasn't cut out to make it at the higher level. 

[waiheke1]

On 12/18/2021 at 3:33 AM, prodons said:

Seems harsh to tar Andy Campbell with the same brush as Bernie Collier and Mark Crang but I agree with the overall sentiment.

Whereas Collier and Crang were NL reserves at best, Campbell on his day was an NL heat leader and a BL second string.

We expected him to be our star signing back in 1988 but it didn’t quite work out that way.

My point in including Andy Campbell wasn't to compare ability wise with Collier or Crang. If I included only the latter two however, it would seem I was basing eligibility only on ability/points contribution. Rather someone like Campbell, who rode only one season in Aces colours, should also imo not be entitled to free life time admittance to Belle Vue. 

[waiheke1]

11 hours ago, falcace said:

Yep. Stuart Bamforth is remembered as the man who sold Hyde Road....there are more layers to the story than that of course. But you couldn't accuse him of not trying to win with Belle Vue. He spent big on Mark Courtney, Carl Blackbird, Andy Campbell and Paul Thorp in a short space of time....and they were all the right riders to buy - at that time, they were all really promising English riders. Thorpy worked out the best. Blackbird and Courtney could and should have done better. But Andy Campbell, you could tell he tried really hard, but he just wasn't cut out to make it at the higher level. 

Mostly agreed, though not sure he bought the right riders - for example Tatum went to Coventry in 85 for roughly the same price as Campbell went to the Aces. Similarly Neil Evitts and Neil Collins could potentially have been picked up instead of Courtney for a similar fee, and on lower averages.

Thorp  was definitely a good signing, and as you say the pick of the bunch.

Courtney was very good round Hyde Rd, very disappointing away, but still averaged close to 8 in his one season. The issue iirc was attitude, certainly not ability, and he dropped a coupole more points off his average after leaving the Aces.

Blackbird also seemed a good signing, had a superb 1986, and was surprising that he didn't kick on. Was it a lack of investment in equipment?

Campbell I have to admit I'm biased against (as he replaces my all time favourite Ace), but it just never seemed a good signing. The Aces could have kept one of Ross/Courtney/P Carr, all of whom had vastly superior records round Hyde Rd, and at least the latter two seemed to have much more potential. It just never worked out - recall Bammy saying something like he thought he was signing a heat leader (pretty sure Campbell rode at number 1 in his first meetings, so he was obviously envisages as Larry's successor in that role) but instead he got a good reserve. 

[fatface]

24 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Mostly agreed, though not sure he bought the right riders - for example Tatum went to Coventry in 85 for roughly the same price as Campbell went to the Aces. Similarly Neil Evitts and Neil Collins could potentially have been picked up instead of Courtney for a similar fee, and on lower averages.

Thorp  was definitely a good signing, and as you say the pick of the bunch.

Courtney was very good round Hyde Rd, very disappointing away, but still averaged close to 8 in his one season. The issue iirc was attitude, certainly not ability, and he dropped a coupole more points off his average after leaving the Aces.

Blackbird also seemed a good signing, had a superb 1986, and was surprising that he didn't kick on. Was it a lack of investment in equipment?

Campbell I have to admit I'm biased against (as he replaces my all time favourite Ace), but it just never seemed a good signing. The Aces could have kept one of Ross/Courtney/P Carr, all of whom had vastly superior records round Hyde Rd, and at least the latter two seemed to have much more potential. It just never worked out - recall Bammy saying something like he thought he was signing a heat leader (pretty sure Campbell rode at number 1 in his first meetings, so he was obviously envisages as Larry's successor in that role) but instead he got a good reserve. 

I think both Courtney and Blackbird lacked the application...both very able though. Andy Campbell had a really good 1984 with Exeter, but it was a lot different being a big fish in a small pond than riding at no1 for the Aces. On paper all looked good signings....but didn't work out that way. The same year, Aces were in for Sam Ermolenko when he was out of British Speedway, but I think were put off by the terms. We got Eddie Ingels instead!  

[waiheke1]

4 hours ago, falcace said:

I think both Courtney and Blackbird lacked the application...both very able though. Andy Campbell had a really good 1984 with Exeter, but it was a lot different being a big fish in a small pond than riding at no1 for the Aces. On paper all looked good signings....but didn't work out that way. The same year, Aces were in for Sam Ermolenko when he was out of British Speedway, but I think were put off by the terms. We got Eddie Ingels instead!  

Was just going to mention that - of all the Americans, we signed the one who couldn't ride Hyde Rd....

How different it could have been had we signed Sam for the latter half of the 85 season, or for the 86 season, on a bargain average. 

[fatface]

25 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Was just going to mention that - of all the Americans, we signed the one who couldn't ride Hyde Rd....

How different it could have been had we signed Sam for the latter half of the 85 season, or for the 86 season, on a bargain average. 

Massive. In fact worth speculating that we would never have had the Morans. Sam would've been our spearhead through to the 90s. 

Same issue with Ingels as Campbell. Promising year at Newcastle in 1984...but again was in a small pond. Out of his depth at Belle Vue. Wonder what came of him? 

[waiheke1]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

Massive. In fact worth speculating that we would never have had the Morans. Sam would've been our spearhead through to the 90s. 

Same issue with Ingels as Campbell. Promising year at Newcastle in 1984...but again was in a small pond. Out of his depth at Belle Vue. Wonder what came of him? 

He went back to the states and won a few North california titles.

I think people often  under estimate the difference in strength between a top flight of 17 teams and a top flight of 11 teams, which was the shift from 84 to 85. It meant weaker heat leaders became second string quality, and second strings became reserve standard. 

Arguably that's what happenned to Courtney, Campbell and Ingels in 85. 

[fatface]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

He went back to the states and won a few North california titles.

I think people often  under estimate the difference in strength between a top flight of 17 teams and a top flight of 11 teams, which was the shift from 84 to 85. It meant weaker heat leaders became second string quality, and second strings became reserve standard. 

Arguably that's what happenned to Courtney, Campbell and Ingels in 85. 

Courtney was 84 though. I think the big problem was that he didn't pull his weight in some narrow away losses. Really, Aces should have won the league that year, they were the strongest team. They were smashing teams at home all year. Didn't know Ingels had some success....good for him 

[lucifer sam]

40 minutes ago, falcace said:

Courtney was 84 though. I think the big problem was that he didn't pull his weight in some narrow away losses. Really, Aces should have won the league that year, they were the strongest team. They were smashing teams at home all year. Didn't know Ingels had some success....good for him 

To be fair to the 1984 Aces, they only dropped nine league points (three defeats and three draws) - but the problem was Ipswich only dropped eight!  Belle Vue's away form was pretty exceptional - 9 wins, 3 draws and 3 defeats in the BL. Plus a 100% home record. Most seasons that would have seen them walk the league.  A season of two incredible sides!

Edited December 20, 2021 by lucifer sam

[chunky]

9 hours ago, falcace said:

Andy Campbell had a really good 1984 with Exeter

Andy's problem, I feel, was his style. He was a grass-tracker - and rode speedway like a grass-tracker. His style suited a track like Exeter, but not most other tracks. Like Andy, we had Alan Farmer, at Wimbledon, and he had the same problem.

[fatface]

2 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

To be fair to the 1984 Aces, they only dropped nine league points (three defeats and three draws) - but the problem was Ipswich only dropped eight!  Belle Vue's away form was pretty exceptional - 9 wins, 3 draws and 3 defeats in the BL. Plus a 100% home record. Most seasons that would have seen them walk the league.  A season of two incredible sides!

Yes, but Belle Vue were good enough to win nearly every match. I would still say the team of Morton, Collins, Ross, Courtney, Smith, P Carr, McKinna is stronger than Sanders, Cook, Niemi, Doncaster, Knight, Flatman, Blackbird. Fun season though. 

[waiheke1]

7 hours ago, falcace said:

Courtney was 84 though. I think the big problem was that he didn't pull his weight in some narrow away losses. Really, Aces should have won the league that year, they were the strongest team. They were smashing teams at home all year. Didn't know Ingels had some success....good for him 

Yeah sorry wasn't clear. Courtney did drop around a point (?) off his average in 84, but that was still enough to have made him a heat leader in most teams. (In 85 when he joined KL he dropped another 2 to become a sub 6pt second string). The issue was, as you say, his away form (see also Larry, Andy and Peter Carr).  At home they smashed teams - with the exception of the Premiership at home to Cradley (Finn Jensen!!!) and was it the league Cup or ko Cup against Ipswich? 

Edited December 21, 2021 by waiheke1

[steve roberts]

10 hours ago, falcace said:

Yes, but Belle Vue were good enough to win nearly every match. I would still say the team of Morton, Collins, Ross, Courtney, Smith, P Carr, McKinna is stronger than Sanders, Cook, Niemi, Doncaster, Knight, Flatman, Blackbird. Fun season though. 

Glad to say that Belle Vue "only" managed a draw at Cowley that year which one could argue effectively meant that "lost" point cost them the championship! The twice rained-off meeting at Hyde Road against Swindon would have undoubtedly taken place if the championship depended upon the result but having dropped a point at Oxford earlier in the season put it out of reach of the "Aces".

Edited December 21, 2021 by steve roberts

[fatface]

17 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Yeah sorry wasn't clear. Courtney did drop around a point (?) off his average in 84, but that was still enough to have made him a heat leader in most teams. (In 85 when he joined KL he dropped another 2 to become a sub 6pt second string). The issue was, as you say, his away form (see also Larry, Andy and Peter Carr).  At home they smashed teams - with the exception of the Premiership at home to Cradley (Finn Jensen!!!) and was it the league Cup or ko Cup against Ipswich? 

Finn Jensen. Brilliant or dreadful. Nothing in between :-)

I remember the KO Cup Final well v Ipswich. The track was a mess...something to do with frost. We were well beaten, but when you see Mort and PC barely able to slide the bike around Hyde Road, it's not really speedway is it? 

[Guest]

On 12/20/2021 at 3:56 PM, waiheke1 said:

He went back to the states and won a few North california titles.

I think people often  under estimate the difference in strength between a top flight of 17 teams and a top flight of 11 teams, which was the shift from 84 to 85. It meant weaker heat leaders became second string quality, and second strings became reserve standard. 

Arguably that's what happenned to Courtney, Campbell and Ingels in 85. 

What’s amazing is that incredibly Hans and Erik’s averages continued to rise in 1985 to 10,38 and 11.35 respectively. (Apologies for going massively off-topic)

[Shrub]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

Finn Jensen. Brilliant or dreadful. Nothing in between :-)

I remember the KO Cup Final well v Ipswich. The track was a mess...something to do with frost. We were well beaten, but when you see Mort and PC barely able to slide the bike around Hyde Road, it's not really speedway is it? 

You're right it was frost and I believe coupled with it being slightly over-watered. It was a strange meeting, we had been absolutely annihilated in the league at Hyde Road a couple of months before but came up full of confidence after destroying Reading at Smallmead earlier in the week to win the league so didn't know what to expect. In the end it was a very easy Ipswich win.

You mention Mort and PC being barely able to slide their bikes which is true yet Sanders, Knight Niemi and Cook had no problems, indeed (from memory) I think Richard Knight recorded one of the fastest times of the season during the meeting. A case of the home side caught out with unusual home track conditions and the away side just got on with it and rode it as they saw it?

It was a shame it did end like that though, it could have been a truly classic final. Certainly the two best sides in the league, Belle Vue the strongest on paper against a confident Ipswich side on a roll. Two teams with some great racers in them. It is mad isn't it, having the showpiece event at that time of year when the weather is likely to be the winner? We did go out onto the track well after the meeting / bars closing and I can't ever remember seeing such deep ruts on a track. And after a few steps it felt like you had a couple of bricks strapped to your feet...  

[Bruiser]

I certainly remember that cup final against Ipswich…something like 55-23 or something ridiculous…The track looked weird and certainly rode weird, you didn’t need to slide the bike and the times were incredibly fast , but all set by Ipswich riders !….definitely one of the strangest meetings ever.

Regarding Andy Campbell and Mark Courtney , they were Stuart Bamforth signings when he wanted young English riders ..Campbell had had a good Exeter season and was obviously great around Exeter but never really got the hang of Hyde Road….I remember being excited about Courtney coming as I thought he looked excellent for Leicester and would be a great signing but another one who never really got going for Belle Vue

[waiheke1]

21 hours ago, prodons said:

What’s amazing is that incredibly Hans and Erik’s averages continued to rise in 1985 to 10,38 and 11.35 respectively. (Apologies for going massively off-topic)

For the VERY top riders, the number of teams didn't really make a difference, as they would beat pretty much everyone anyway (and of course Eric's 84 average was artificially low due to his initial struggles to adapt to the new tape rules). Hans and Eric both increased averages again in 86. 

[fatface]

22 hours ago, Shrub said:

You're right it was frost and I believe coupled with it being slightly over-watered. It was a strange meeting, we had been absolutely annihilated in the league at Hyde Road a couple of months before but came up full of confidence after destroying Reading at Smallmead earlier in the week to win the league so didn't know what to expect. In the end it was a very easy Ipswich win.

You mention Mort and PC being barely able to slide their bikes which is true yet Sanders, Knight Niemi and Cook had no problems, indeed (from memory) I think Richard Knight recorded one of the fastest times of the season during the meeting. A case of the home side caught out with unusual home track conditions and the away side just got on with it and rode it as they saw it?

It was a shame it did end like that though, it could have been a truly classic final. Certainly the two best sides in the league, Belle Vue the strongest on paper against a confident Ipswich side on a roll. Two teams with some great racers in them. It is mad isn't it, having the showpiece event at that time of year when the weather is likely to be the winner? We did go out onto the track well after the meeting / bars closing and I can't ever remember seeing such deep ruts on a track. And after a few steps it felt like you had a couple of bricks strapped to your feet...  

 

20 hours ago, Bruiser said:

I certainly remember that cup final against Ipswich…something like 55-23 or something ridiculous…The track looked weird and certainly rode weird, you didn’t need to slide the bike and the times were incredibly fast , but all set by Ipswich riders !….definitely one of the strangest meetings ever.

Regarding Andy Campbell and Mark Courtney , they were Stuart Bamforth signings when he wanted young English riders ..Campbell had had a good Exeter season and was obviously great around Exeter but never really got the hang of Hyde Road….I remember being excited about Courtney coming as I thought he looked excellent for Leicester and would be a great signing but another one who never really got going for Belle Vue

Evocative stuff. Thanks for the memories! I can see from an Ipswich perspective, it would have been a lot of fun coming to Hyde Road and hammering us. From this young Aces fan though, it was no fun watching a team that had been brilliant all year suddenly looking very amateurish.