Heat details 1986 British Open Pairs

[fatface]

Has anyone got the results from the 1986 British Open Pairs at Sheffield, 24/08/86.

Thanks in advance 

[steve19620]

I will have these but i am going on holiday for a week from tomorrow.

If no one has posted the details by next weekend i will get them posted for you when I get back.

Steve

 

[Andrew]

Oxford 29
Hans Nielsen 2',3,ef,2,1,2':10+2
Simon Wigg   3,2',3,1',3,3:15+2

Coventry 26
John Jorgensen 1,2,1',3,0,2':9+2
Kelvin Tatum     3,1',2,2',2,3:13+2

Sheffield 20
Shawn Moran 0,3,2',1,3,2:11+1
Neil Collins     1,1,3,0,1,1':7+1

Bradford 19
Neil Evitts    0,ef,2,2,2,1':7+1
Lance King 2,3,1',1'ef,2:9+2

Belle Vue 19
Chris Morton 2,3,3,3,3,3:17
Peter Collins 1',nf,-,-,-,-,:1+1

Cradley 16
Erik Gundersen  3,2,3,3,3,0:14
Jan O Pedersen 0,0,ef,1,0,1:2

Ipswich 13
Jeremy Doncaster  2,0,0,0,1',0:3+1
Kai Niemi                1',1,1,2,2,1:8+1

Reserves
Sean Wilson 0,0
Peter McNamara 0
Derrol Keats 0

Ht1.Tatum,King,Jorgensen,Evitts:64.5
Ht2.Gundersen,Morton,Collins,Pedersen:64.1
Ht3.Wigg,Nielsen,Collins,Moran:63.9
Ht4.King,Doncaster,Niemi,Evitts (ef):64.1
Ht5.Morton,Jorgensen,Tatum,Collins (nf):64.0
Ht6.Moran,Gundersen,Collins,Pedersen:63.6
Ht7.Nielsen,Wigg,Niemi,Doncaster:64.1
Ht8.Morton,Evitts,King,Wilson:63.6
Ht9.Gundersen,Tatum,Jorgensen,Pedersen (ef):64.2
Ht10.Collins,Moran,Niemi,Doncaster:65.2
Ht11.Wigg,Evitts,King,Nielsen (ef):64.7
Ht12.Jorgensen,Tatum,Moran,Collins:65.0
Ht13.Morton,Nielsen,Wigg,McNamara:64.0
Ht14.Gundersen,Niemi,Pedersen,Doncaster:64.7
Ht15.Moran,Evitts,Collins,King (ef):64.7
Ht16.Wigg,Tatum,Nielsen,Jorgensen:65.2
Ht17.Morton,Niemi,Doncaster,Keats:65.3
Ht18.Gundersen,King,Evitts,Pedersen:65.9
Ht19.Tatum,Jorgensen,Niemi,Doncaster:65.5
Ht20.Morton,Moran,Collins,Wilson:66.0
Ht21.Wigg,Nielsen,Pedersen,Gundersen:(no time recorded)

[steve roberts]

4 hours ago, Andrew said:

Oxford 29
Hans Nielsen 2',3,ef,2,1,2':10+2
Simon Wigg   3,2',3,1',3,3:15+2

Coventry 26
John Jorgensen 1,2,1',3,0,2':9+2
Kelvin Tatum     3,1',2,2',2,3:13+2

Sheffield 20
Shawn Moran 0,3,2',1,3,2:11+1
Neil Collins     1,1,3,0,1,1':7+1

Bradford 19
Neil Evitts    0,ef,2,2,2,1':7+1
Lance King 2,3,1',1'ef,2:9+2

Belle Vue 19
Chris Morton 2,3,3,3,3,3:17
Peter Collins 1',nf,-,-,-,-,:1+1

Cradley 16
Erik Gundersen  3,2,3,3,3,0:14
Jan O Pedersen 0,0,ef,1,0,1:2

Ipswich 13
Jeremy Doncaster  2,0,0,0,1',0:3+1
Kai Niemi                1',1,1,2,2,1:8+1

Reserves
Sean Wilson 0,0
Peter McNamara 0
Derrol Keats 0

Ht1.Tatum,King,Jorgensen,Evitts:64.5
Ht2.Gundersen,Morton,Collins,Pedersen:64.1
Ht3.Wigg,Nielsen,Collins,Moran:63.9
Ht4.King,Doncaster,Niemi,Evitts (ef):64.1
Ht5.Morton,Jorgensen,Tatum,Collins (nf):64.0
Ht6.Moran,Gundersen,Collins,Pedersen:63.6
Ht7.Nielsen,Wigg,Niemi,Doncaster:64.1
Ht8.Morton,Evitts,King,Wilson:63.6
Ht9.Gundersen,Tatum,Jorgensen,Pedersen (ef):64.2
Ht10.Collins,Moran,Niemi,Doncaster:65.2
Ht11.Wigg,Evitts,King,Nielsen (ef):64.7
Ht12.Jorgensen,Tatum,Moran,Collins:65.0
Ht13.Morton,Nielsen,Wigg,McNamara:64.0
Ht14.Gundersen,Niemi,Pedersen,Doncaster:64.7
Ht15.Moran,Evitts,Collins,King (ef):64.7
Ht16.Wigg,Tatum,Nielsen,Jorgensen:65.2
Ht17.Morton,Niemi,Doncaster,Keats:65.3
Ht18.Gundersen,King,Evitts,Pedersen:65.9
Ht19.Tatum,Jorgensen,Niemi,Doncaster:65.5
Ht20.Morton,Moran,Collins,Wilson:66.0
Ht21.Wigg,Nielsen,Pedersen,Gundersen:(no time recorded)

Them were the days! Oxford on top of the world!

[fatface]

On 9/12/2021 at 2:11 AM, Andrew said:

Oxford 29
Hans Nielsen 2',3,ef,2,1,2':10+2
Simon Wigg   3,2',3,1',3,3:15+2

Coventry 26
John Jorgensen 1,2,1',3,0,2':9+2
Kelvin Tatum     3,1',2,2',2,3:13+2

Sheffield 20
Shawn Moran 0,3,2',1,3,2:11+1
Neil Collins     1,1,3,0,1,1':7+1

Bradford 19
Neil Evitts    0,ef,2,2,2,1':7+1
Lance King 2,3,1',1'ef,2:9+2

Belle Vue 19
Chris Morton 2,3,3,3,3,3:17
Peter Collins 1',nf,-,-,-,-,:1+1

Cradley 16
Erik Gundersen  3,2,3,3,3,0:14
Jan O Pedersen 0,0,ef,1,0,1:2

Ipswich 13
Jeremy Doncaster  2,0,0,0,1',0:3+1
Kai Niemi                1',1,1,2,2,1:8+1

Reserves
Sean Wilson 0,0
Peter McNamara 0
Derrol Keats 0

Ht1.Tatum,King,Jorgensen,Evitts:64.5
Ht2.Gundersen,Morton,Collins,Pedersen:64.1
Ht3.Wigg,Nielsen,Collins,Moran:63.9
Ht4.King,Doncaster,Niemi,Evitts (ef):64.1
Ht5.Morton,Jorgensen,Tatum,Collins (nf):64.0
Ht6.Moran,Gundersen,Collins,Pedersen:63.6
Ht7.Nielsen,Wigg,Niemi,Doncaster:64.1
Ht8.Morton,Evitts,King,Wilson:63.6
Ht9.Gundersen,Tatum,Jorgensen,Pedersen (ef):64.2
Ht10.Collins,Moran,Niemi,Doncaster:65.2
Ht11.Wigg,Evitts,King,Nielsen (ef):64.7
Ht12.Jorgensen,Tatum,Moran,Collins:65.0
Ht13.Morton,Nielsen,Wigg,McNamara:64.0
Ht14.Gundersen,Niemi,Pedersen,Doncaster:64.7
Ht15.Moran,Evitts,Collins,King (ef):64.7
Ht16.Wigg,Tatum,Nielsen,Jorgensen:65.2
Ht17.Morton,Niemi,Doncaster,Keats:65.3
Ht18.Gundersen,King,Evitts,Pedersen:65.9
Ht19.Tatum,Jorgensen,Niemi,Doncaster:65.5
Ht20.Morton,Moran,Collins,Wilson:66.0
Ht21.Wigg,Nielsen,Pedersen,Gundersen:(no time recorded)

Thanks very much. I realise it wasn't the biggest event, but I remember the field being strong, great racing and Chris Morton being absolute dynamite on the day, despite being (virtually) on his own. Gundersen only held him off by a tyre width in his first race. My dad and I left thinking he could win the World Title a week later in Poland. If only! Also remember Soldier Boy having a go at PC (very publicly of course) over looking the pits. Sadly, PC just seemed to have lost interest at that time. 

[OveFundinFan]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

Thanks very much. I realise it wasn't the biggest event, but I remember the field being strong, great racing and Chris Morton being absolute dynamite on the day, despite being (virtually) on his own. Gundersen only held him off by a tyre width in his first race. My dad and I left thinking he could win the World Title a week later in Poland. If only! Also remember Soldier Boy having a go at PC (very publicly of course) over looking the pits. Sadly, PC just seemed to have lost interest at that time. 

 Chris Morton was world class,  no doubt about it. Just didn’t do it on the big night of the world final, presume nerves got the best of him, but yes, he would have been a worthy world champ.

[fatface]

51 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

 Chris Morton was world class,  no doubt about it. Just didn’t do it on the big night of the world final, presume nerves got the best of him, but yes, he would have been a worthy world champ.

Would've been nice. But as brilliant as he could be, I don't think he was ever quite good enough to be World Champion, probably in the world's top 5 or so in 1980/81? A rostrum appearance would have been an achievement in keeping with his ability.

[waiheke1]

3 hours ago, falcace said:

Would've been nice. But as brilliant as he could be, I don't think he was ever quite good enough to be World Champion, probably in the world's top 5 or so in 1980/81? A rostrum appearance would have been an achievement in keeping with his ability.

You don't win a world final without making gates, especially on the generally rubbish tracks that world finals were on in the 80s. 

Norden in 83 was probably his best chsnce for a podium finish, but the watering of the track at the interval killed his chances.

The IC and BLRC final wins, as well as his WTC Final performances in 80/81 showed that he could be absolutely world class on his day - but there wasn't a season he was in the top 3 riders in the world, though he would have been in the top 10 for several seasons  

 

[fatface]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

You don't win a world final without making gates, especially on the generally rubbish tracks that world finals were on in the 80s. 

Norden in 83 was probably his best chsnce for a podium finish, but the watering of the track at the interval killed his chances.

The IC and BLRC final wins, as well as his WTC Final performances in 80/81 showed that he could be absolutely world class on his day - but there wasn't a season he was in the top 3 riders in the world, though he would have been in the top 10 for several seasons  

 

All 20 heats of Norden are on YouTube and Mort has a cracking race with Mitch Shirra...which put him on 6 at the interval...so, in with a shout. But also earning those 6 points, 4 of them were from behind. No rider, no matter how good, could win a World Final earning two-thirds of their points from behind. 

I'd agree that he was never clearly in the world's best three across a year, but he was in the world's top riders for the thick end of a decade. There were certainly worse riders who climbed on a World Final podium...it would have been a fair reflection for Mort to have done that once. 

[waiheke1]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

All 20 heats of Norden are on YouTube and Mort has a cracking race with Mitch Shirra...which put him on 6 at the interval...so, in with a shout. But also earning those 6 points, 4 of them were from behind. No rider, no matter how good, could win a World Final earning two-thirds of their points from behind. 

I'd agree that he was never clearly in the world's best three across a year, but he was in the world's top riders for the thick end of a decade. There were certainly worse riders who climbed on a World Final podium...it would have been a fair reflection for Mort to have done that once. 

Fully agree: would definitely put him ahead of L Collins, King, Doncaster, Wigg and probably Sanders, Muller and Tatum, all of whom made the podium in the 80s. 

Morts race with Shirra was about the only one worth watching from that meeting from memory....

[waiheke1]

It's often been debated on here who is the best rider never to win the world title, and I don't think Mort is a genuine contender for that "title."

But best rider never to finish on the podium (and i exclude riders who rode in years where there was no world championship) - Mort would be one of the very top in that category, maybe along with Darcy Ward, who would have a very different kind of claim.

[fatface]

10 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

It's often been debated on here who is the best rider never to win the world title, and I don't think Mort is a genuine contender for that "title."

But best rider never to finish on the podium (and i exclude riders who rode in years where there was no world championship) - Mort would be one of the very top in that category, maybe along with Darcy Ward, who would have a very different kind of claim.

Agree with that assessment. I think he falls into the "best rider never to....." camp because I think there are actually very few cases of riders who were World Champion material who never made it to the top step. Ward is the obvious one, older fans might say Tommy Jansson (though I'm not sure the compelling evidence was there) and for riders who did enjoy full careers you'd be hard pressed to find a better candidate than Leigh Adams for sheer world class longevity. Mort's in there with Phil Crump, Shawn Moran, Tommy Knudsen and the like...top, top riders, just never quite good enough to win it.  

[Grachan]

11 minutes ago, falcace said:

Agree with that assessment. I think he falls into the "best rider never to....." camp because I think there are actually very few cases of riders who were World Champion material who never made it to the top step. Ward is the obvious one, older fans might say Tommy Jansson (though I'm not sure the compelling evidence was there) and for riders who did enjoy full careers you'd be hard pressed to find a better candidate than Leigh Adams for sheer world class longevity. Mort's in there with Phil Crump, Shawn Moran, Tommy Knudsen and the like...top, top riders, just never quite good enough to win it.  

I'm not so sure with Chris Morton being among the best riders never to win a world title. Riders like Adams, Crump, Moran and Knudsen were riders who really should have won a World Final. I'm not sure you'd say the same with Chris.

When you look at some riders who finished on the podium, though, I think he would have a case for being better than them. EG Doncaster, Kennett, L.Collins, Handberg, Boyce etc. But none of those are really riders that you would have expected to win either.

I'd even go as far as saying he achieved more at World Level than some riders of similar standard such as Ashby, Schwartz.

 

[fatface]

39 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I'm not so sure with Chris Morton being among the best riders never to win a world title. Riders like Adams, Crump, Moran and Knudsen were riders who really should have won a World Final. I'm not sure you'd say the same with Chris.

When you look at some riders who finished on the podium, though, I think he would have a case for being better than them. EG Doncaster, Kennett, L.Collins, Handberg, Boyce etc. But none of those are really riders that you would have expected to win either.

I'd even go as far as saying he achieved more at World Level than some riders of similar standard such as Ashby, Schwartz.

 

Maybe. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....and tbh, I am utterly biased in this discussion having grown up watching Mort at Hyde Road.

His World Final record is shocking. No arguments on that front. But doesn't really fairly reflect where he was at. Not many riders have a CV like this...

• World Pairs winner (as top scorer)
• World Team Cup winner (as top scorer)
• Intercontinental winner
• BLRC winner
• British Final winner
• 9 times in BL top 10 averages (six times with a 10+ average)
• 2nd most capped England rider ever, over 100
• Seven times World Finalist

note: I'd also say that all of the above where achieved when there was no dilution in quality in those events, which came later on

Like Mort, I don't think you could ever say that there was a year when Adams, Crump, Moran or Knudsen were the best in the world. But his CV is at least comparable and arguably better than most of those names.  And it's certainly better than Ashby or Schwartz. 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by falcace

[Grachan]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

Maybe. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....and tbh, I am utterly biased in this discussion having grown up watching Mort at Hyde Road.

His World Final record is shocking. No arguments on that front. But doesn't really fairly reflect where he was at. Not many riders have a CV like this...

• World Pairs winner (as top scorer)
• World Team Cup winner (as top scorer)
• Intercontinental winner
• BLRC winner
• British Final winner
• 9 times in BL top 10 averages (six times with a 10+ average)
• 2nd most capped England rider ever, over 100
• Seven times World Finalist

note: I'd also say that all of the above where achieved when there was no dilution in quality in those events, which came later on

Like Mort, I don't think you could ever say that there was a year when Adams, Crump, Moran or Knudsen were the best in the world. But his CV is at least comparable and arguably better than most of those names.  And it's certainly better than Ashby or Schwartz. 

 

It definitely helps if you watch a rider regularly. Nothing will ever convince me that Ray Wilson was better than Martin Ashby!

[fatface]

5 minutes ago, Grachan said:

It definitely helps if you watch a rider regularly. Nothing will ever convince me that Ray Wilson was better than Martin Ashby!

 Yep, there's definitely a frequency bias.

I saw a lot more of Shawn Moran race than I saw of Kelly Moran and I always find it a little surprising that plenty rate Kelly higher of the two.

[waiheke1]

17 minutes ago, falcace said:

 

I saw a lot more of Shawn Moran race than I saw of Kelly Moran and I always find it a little surprising that plenty rate Kelly higher of the two.

Ditto. Tbf, Shawn's record is significantly better than Kelly's, I guess those rating Kelly higher base it on natural ability rather than achievement. But Shawn was imo one of the top half dozen riders of the 80s, Kelly was probably top 20.

[Technik]

6 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Ditto. Tbf, Shawn's record is significantly better than Kelly's, I guess those rating Kelly higher base it on natural ability rather than achievement. But Shawn was imo one of the top half dozen riders of the 80s, Kelly was probably top 20.

Kelly had a gift, But he didn't always use it well, but when he wanted it he was among the very best. Shawn worked at his craft a little harder & got better results in the big meetings but for Kelly it was always about having fun with the boys

[r8gdp]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:35 PM, Technik said:

Kelly had a gift, But he didn't always use it well, but when he wanted it he was among the very best. Shawn worked at his craft a little harder & got better results in the big meetings but for Kelly it was always about having fun with the boys

I was once stood near Kelly at Sheffield and heard him telling someone win or lose always booze  .along with Shawn could ride a speedway bike definitely  

[steve roberts]

6 hours ago, r8gdp said:

I was once stood near Kelly at Sheffield and heard him telling someone win or lose always booze  .along with Shawn could ride a speedway bike definitely  

Terrific rider but could have achieved so much more if had contained his off track addictions which eventually caught up with him...but that was Kelly!