Is Emil Right In What He Says?

[OveFundinFan]

Please read    https://www.speedwaygp.com/news/article/9206/sayfutdinovs-final-frustration

When you read the whole article it is clear to see he is very frustrated in how speedway is run today .  To quote he says "speedway is now like F1 I think,. Its just decided by the engines and not the riders. Even if you spend a lot of time training it doesn't help if you have had bad setups or bad engines. We are going the wrong way"

Is it the engines, and if so what is wrong and how is it rectified?  or is it something else, say the track material, depth, not enough on the inside, whatever?

I can see Emils frustration that for the last 10-12 years or so he has been the Russian boy wonder, but he hasn't won the World Championship, and now, this year, Laguta is in with a hot chance of doing just that. 

Maybe though, Emil has a point. A standard speedway engine should be a winner. But it seems riders are spending loads of money on top of a new engine to get it to higher levels,

What do you guys think, and what is the solution, if any is needed.?

[customhouseregular]

37 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

Please read    https://www.speedwaygp.com/news/article/9206/sayfutdinovs-final-frustration

When you read the whole article it is clear to see he is very frustrated in how speedway is run today .  To quote he says "speedway is now like F1 I think,. Its just decided by the engines and not the riders. Even if you spend a lot of time training it doesn't help if you have had bad setups or bad engines. We are going the wrong way"

Is it the engines, and if so what is wrong and how is it rectified?  or is it something else, say the track material, depth, not enough on the inside, whatever?

I can see Emils frustration that for the last 10-12 years or so he has been the Russian boy wonder, but he hasn't won the World Championship, and now, this year, Laguta is in with a hot chance of doing just that. 

Maybe though, Emil has a point. A standard speedway engine should be a winner. But it seems riders are spending loads of money on top of a new engine to get it to higher levels,

What do you guys think, and what is the solution, if any is needed.?

Emil is very experienced and has ridden a multitude of tracks in many countries. He has competed against every rider of note and beaten them all. I reckon he knows what he is talking about.

[eric i]

This has been discussed before.....

The top riders and tuners who have invested loads don't want standardised engines.

[OveFundinFan]

17 minutes ago, eric i said:

This has been discussed before.....

The top riders and tuners who have invested loads don't want standardised engines.

Thanks Eric. 2016, yes, and probably some time before, and before that too.  Definitely need some standardisation at UK national level, the sport is almost dead in UK. Reduce costs for riders, encourage fresh ones to the sport. That is one problem in UK speedway, attracting crowds back is something else.

But here we have one of the top players on the world scene. Either he is niffed that a fellow countryman is possibly going to take the prize he has wanted or he maybe he is the first to make a noise for change.  The sums of money top riders have invested in high tune ups, that is money already spent, and they will keep spending it. Standardisation will mean cost saving every year in the future. If standardisation is the solution what should it look like. Or are there other problems?

[stevehone]

the horse has already bolted on this one, we're much too far down the line to make any changes now

[GWC]

I think what we have now is what the music industry did as good producers could make great stars.

The tuners call the tune - if you pardon the pun and money is thrown at them to give a rider 1 more horse power than the other guy.

The skills of a rider became less important as the lay downs arrived but I’m sure even if we had kept to 4 valves the same scenario would be happening but not costing so much maybe.

[Fromafar]

IMO .No -he is contradicting himself ,he is as fast the rest when gets it right,but he is unable to figure it out all the time.We all know things are not going to change on the engine front.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Fromafar

[OveFundinFan]

26 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

IMO .No -he is contradicting himself ,he is as fast the rest when gets it right,but he is unable to figure it out all the time.We all know things are not going to change on the engine front.

If you read his quote you will find after the semi, his team thought great, they didn’t touch the bike in relation to changing things, yet in the final he said the bike just didn’t pull from the start.

I don’t see the need for these bikes revving to what 11000/12000 rpm. The JAP engine didn’t Rev half of that I don’t think and we had some good racing.             
On the grass tracks some of the top riders tried two strokes, easy to tune, Maico, Honda engines. They ditched them, too revvy, to hard to handle.

[Triple.H.]

IMO his big problem is when he was a gap chasing fence scraper, he followed his managers advice and opted out/placed less emphasis of/on the GPs. 

Now he's a bit older and the gaps are smaller and the fences harder, he's realised all the natural ability in the World won't keep him up with the young flyweights on rockets.

[waiheke1]

Set-ups and good bikes have always, and will always, be important. Mauger, Olsen, Penhall,Lee, Gundersen, Nielsen etc always had equipment as good or better than any of their rivals. 

Woffy is a clear example- when he won his first couple of world titles, he looked a speed above everyone else. This year he sometimes looks like he is riding a lawnmower.

Similarly, I recall Emil having bikes that were sensationally quick a few years back- that's not the case the last couple.

Zmarzlik in the last 2-3 years, consistently looks like he is quicker than anyone- he must also be the lightest of the GP riders, which i assume makes a difference. 

Honestly, this felt a little like sour grapes from Emil, and frustration that his team are not getting his bikes right. 

[OveFundinFan]

I agree, Triple H, that he did himself no favours the three years he was absent from the GPs. He would have been up there with Tai chasing world title, Tai got them, Emil didn’t.  Having said that, I still agree engine tuning is costing everyone a fortune, no need for it.

[waiheke1]

29 minutes ago, Triple.H. said:

IMO his big problem is when he was a gap chasing fence scraper, he followed his managers advice and opted out/placed less emphasis of/on the GPs. 

Now he's a bit older and the gaps are smaller and the fences harder, he's realised all the natural ability in the World won't keep him up with the young flyweights on rockets.

Yep. He missed 3 (?)years when he should have been at his peak. Typically racers, as opposed to gaters, have struggled to be as successful later in their career. (Gollob is an exception).  

Edited September 1, 2021 by waiheke1

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, Triple.H. said:

IMO his big problem is when he was a gap chasing fence scraper, he followed his managers advice and opted out/placed less emphasis of/on the GPs. 

Now he's a bit older and the gaps are smaller and the fences harder, he's realised all the natural ability in the World won't keep him up with the young flyweights on rockets.

Agree,and he is getting on a bit now,even in the Polish League when he gates most times he’s gone,but when he misses the gate he doesn’t wheel chase like he used too.can’t blame him,but don’t think he’s got much to complain about, the sport has moved on.( for better or worse)

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

Yep. He missed 3 (?)years when he should have been at his peak. Typically racers, as opposed to gaters, have struggled to be as successful later in their career. (Gollob is an exception).  

Funny that but on another thread I was comparing Gordon Kennett with John Davis (having seen them both develop at Oxford during the same period). Both eventually achieved high averages but Gordon eventually dropped a league when his achilles heel caught up with him (not the best of gaters) but John survived a fair few more years in the higher league because his knack of making the gate proved advantageous.

[IainB]

Woffy mentioned something in and mid-meeting interview at the GP the other week, he basically said he was going to buy engines until he found a "special one". He said that they should all be the same but occasionally you'll get one that is "special". I'm no engine expert, far from it, but I do think there is something in this, how often do you see a rider winning all before him until his engine goes pop... and then he's never quite the same again.

2006 Hans Andersen had such an engine and arguably could/should have been world champion that year, he was nigh on unbeatable that season but didn't actually qualify for the GP's and came in as a reserve mid way through the season to cover for injury. He won 2 GP's, came 2nd and 3rd once... his engine went pop and he was never quite the same again.

I don't know how Speedway engines are built and what the production tolerances are, but are they really all the same? Bartek and Artem certainly seem to have "special" engines this year, it'll be interesting to see how they go when their engines go bang.

[steve roberts]

43 minutes ago, iainb said:

Woffy mentioned something in and mid-meeting interview at the GP the other week, he basically said he was going to buy engines until he found a "special one". He said that they should all be the same but occasionally you'll get one that is "special". I'm no engine expert, far from it, but I do think there is something in this, how often do you see a rider winning all before him until his engine goes pop... and then he's never quite the same again.

2006 Hans Andersen had such an engine and arguably could/should have been world champion that year, he was nigh on unbeatable that season but didn't actually qualify for the GP's and came in as a reserve mid way through the season to cover for injury. He won 2 GP's, came 2nd and 3rd once... his engine went pop and he was never quite the same again.

I don't know how Speedway engines are built and what the production tolerances are, but are they really all the same? Bartek and Artem certainly seem to have "special" engines this year, it'll be interesting to see how they go when their engines go bang.

...there may be also some inner psychology at play in that some riders 'believe' that one bike/engine is better than their other?

[jenga]

its the plasebo effect ! its all in the head . 

i think i will buy another reliant robin . i have a feeling the next one will go round corners better than the last 2 or 3 i have bought .

 get back to basics and move on .

who pays for all these three wheelers (engines ) ?

i think it could well be the fans and while the riders get all they want from promoters , they dont give a monkeys chuff what the end product of the sport is as long as they are all right jack .. the riders are killing the sport with demands  .. 

the end of season AGM will be a proper comedy of errors  and where most of clubs will bail out of speedway .     RIP British speedway ..

[FAST GATER]

2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...there may be also some inner psychology at play in that some riders 'believe' that one bike/engine is better than their other?

Pre 4 valve engines we had a 2 valve Jawa from new which was just that bit quicker than any of our other engines  ,the only thing we found was the cam lobes were possible slightly different from the rest . That engine broke many track records ( the old NL) it was a special engine like any item that  is mass produced such as cars the odd one is some how better than others .   

In this age of rocket engine demand, there's  bound to be the odd special one   but I do concede that  what goes on in a rider's head plays huge part as well .

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by FAST GATER

[OGT]

Derek Timms once told me about a rider who gave his engine to someone claiming to be a tuner. It was a set up by some of his team mates as he was constantly moaning about his bike. The "tuner" did nothing more than polish the casings, cylinder and barrel so the engine had a mirror finish. The guy fell for it and claimed it was a lot faster than it was before! 

[Jonny the spud]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:02 PM, Triple.H. said:

IMO his big problem is when he was a gap chasing fence scraper, he followed his managers advice and opted out/placed less emphasis of/on the GPs. 

Now he's a bit older and the gaps are smaller and the fences harder, he's realised all the natural ability in the World won't keep him up with the young flyweights on rockets.

Maybe instead of trying to standardise the engines just handicap the riders like in horse racing?

Bike and rider weighed before the meeting and ballast added to the bike so that they’re all on a level playing field. Simple and effective, no flyweight will spend thousands on tuning if he has to have 10kg or more to his bike