For or against the GP series.?

[customhouseregular]

5 minutes ago, chunky said:

Quite honestly, leaving the "occasion" out of it, most World Finals have been underwhelming.

I only attended the Wembley finals 1965-1981. None the them underwhelmed me.

[chunky]

3 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

I only attended the Wembley finals 1965-1981. None the them underwhelmed me.

1969 was my first, and quite honestly, I don't remember anything special, other than Toby breaking his leg, and Mauger letting Sjosten beat him.

1972 is best remembered for Briggo's accident.

1975 is best remembered for the dust bowl, and the idiots watering the track and costing PC the title.

1978 is best remembered for Kennett's performance, including Mauger's fall.

1981 is remembered for TWO races.

I fear that, like everyone else, you are remembering the occasion and the Wembley atmosphere, rather than the actual racing. Let's not forget the other, even more underwhelming World Finals like Amsterdam, Munich, Norden, and Ullevi underwater in '77.

There was some great racing in the '76 final.

Speedway fans are like amateur golfers. World Finals were mostly crap, but like that one chip onto the green that lands inches from the pin, you have one good race which makes everything worthwhile!

[customhouseregular]

Maybe re occasion v racing. One remembers what one wants to remember.

[chunky]

15 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

Maybe re occasion v racing. One remembers what one wants to remember.

I loved my times at Plough Lane, but old videos seem to tell a different story to the one I remember...

I don't know about you, but I think I know part of the appeal. Shiny black leathers and gleaming chrome were spectacular under lights. The kevlars and bike covers don't do it for me.

I was a kid, watching these he-men wrestle their bikes through deep heavy tracks was fantastic. These he-men called Arthur, Norman, Bert, and Fred... Now, I'm the old fart, watching these snotty-nosed, tattooed little kids called Tai, Dakota, Jordan, and Jaimon...

Where did we go wrong?

Edited August 30, 2021 by chunky

[steve roberts]

2 hours ago, falcace said:

Well, you can't please everyone all of the time.

I've been to around 75% of Cardiff GPs. I've seen incredible racing there, poor racing there and mostly, some pretty passable decent stuff. But every single time I have found the atmosphere in and around the stadium to be fantastic. Of course, everyone's different, but the consistent 40k crowd suggest I am far from being alone in my experience.  

...for sure as it's the biggest domestic meeting in the UK now which attracts the crowds and all that it involves irrespective of the quality of the racing allowing fans the chance to enjoy the big occasion atmosphere but my personal preference is that I want to witness a Champion crowned at the end of the meeting and, yes, I well recognise all the arguments "for" and "against" the one-offs and GP Series World Championships. Hence personally feeling somewhat underwhelmed after the event. Wembley events had all the atmosphere also (and, yes, the quality of the racing varied greatly) but where it differed is that it satisfied my personal want and expectations in providing a Champion.

Edited August 30, 2021 by steve roberts

[chunky]

36 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

but where it differed is that it satisfied my personal want and expectations in providing a Champion.

Of course, it's always different when you have a horse in the race...

[customhouseregular]

44 minutes ago, chunky said:

I loved my times at Plough Lane, but old videos seem to tell a different story to the one I remember...

I don't know about you, but I think I know part of the appeal. Shiny black leathers and gleaming chrome were spectacular under lights. The kevlars and bike covers don't do it for me.

I was a kid, watching these he-men wrestle their bikes through deep heavy tracks was fantastic. These he-men called Arthur, Norman, Bert, and Fred... Now, I'm the old fart, watching these snotty-nosed, tattooed little kids called Tai, Dakota, Jordan, and Jaimon...

Where did we go wrong?

Basic bikes, upright engines, cow horn handlebars, the smell, noise and flying shale. Bibs, not team suits, helmet covers that blew off, scarves, nicknames like little boy blue. I love nostalgia.

[chunky]

1 minute ago, customhouseregular said:

Basic bikes, upright engines, cow horn handlebars, the smell, noise and flying shale. Bibs, not team suits, helmet covers that blew off, scarves, nicknames like little boy blue. I love nostalgia.

I was watching a 2021 video a couple of days ago, and thought it sounded like lawnmower racing...

I am fine with team suits - IF THEY HAD A BODY COLOUR TOO!

[customhouseregular]

14 minutes ago, chunky said:

I was watching a 2021 video a couple of days ago, and thought it sounded like lawnmower racing...

I am fine with team suits - IF THEY HAD A BODY COLOUR TOO!

The curse of the silencer

[chunky]

3 hours ago, customhouseregular said:

The curse of the silencer

I still don't quite get the reason for dirt deflectors. They didn't seem to do much in Togliatti last Saturday...

I loved the way you mentioned the helmet colours that blew off; a lot cheaper than having to have different bloody helmets...

Of course you had to mention the cow horn handlebars because of "Hurri-Ken".

[steve roberts]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

I still don't quite get the reason for dirt deflectors. They didn't seem to do much in Togliatti last Saturday...

I loved the way you mentioned the helmet colours that blew off; a lot cheaper than having to have different bloody helmets...

Of course you had to mention the cow horn handlebars because of "Hurri-Ken".

I'm of the the same view as regards dirt deflectors. One of the arguments for introducing them was that less meetings would be cancelled due to adverse weather conditions. Has that really been the case?

[keepturningleft]

13 hours ago, falcace said:

 

Agree. Some of the modern day racing in the GPs is staggering. You could spend hours scouring footage from the 70s, 80s on YouTube and you wouldn't find anything to beat some from the stuff served up by Zmarzlik, Woffinden, Janowski, Laguta, Sayfutdinov, Doyle and Lindgren. I admit to not be as invested in today's racing as I was in the 80s/90s...perhaps that's more to do with my age and other life commitments taking precedent? But I couldn't squarely look a modern day fan in the eye and tell them all the racing was better in the 80s/90s, it simply wasn't. 

My point exactly...which is why I can't understand the amount of negativity on this forum.

I could watch Zmarzlik, Gollob, (let's not forget him), Collins, Gundersen and others, just going round the track on their own.

Personally I would rather watch the world's most boring speedway match than the world's most exciting football match.

Speedway is intoxicating and has magical elements found in no other sport.

And, Norbold, given the amount of persausive recollections by yourself and others, I fully accept that Peter Craven was a spectacular rider and you were indeed fortunate to see him ride!

I will be at Belle Vue next month for the PC memorial Trophy.

 

[norbold]

2 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

My point exactly...which is why I can't understand the amount of negativity on this forum.

I could watch Zmarzlik, Gollob, (let's not forget him), Collins, Gundersen and others, just going round the track on their own.

Personally I would rather watch the world's most boring speedway match than the world's most exciting football match.

Speedway is intoxicating and has magical elements found in no other sport.

And, Norbold, given the amount of persausive recollections by yourself and others, I fully accept that Peter Craven was a spectacular rider and you were indeed fortunate to see him ride!

I will be at Belle Vue next month for the PC memorial Trophy.

 

I haven't really commented on the substance of this topic, nor answered the original question, so here goes....

I was, of course, brought up in the era of The Big Five and have followed speedway ever since. I have to admit I did lose interest in the 80s and 90s, though I still managed to get along to some meetings at Ipswich and followed the sport in the Speedway Star, so what I have to say, may be a bit unfair on that era. But, I do feel that speedway lost its way a bit during that period, which is maybe why I lost interest.

I think there is no doubt that the Grand Prix revived a flagging sport and gave it back some oomph. There is also no doubt that the old one-off finals at Wembley were magical occasions and the atmosphere was just incredible. 80,000 fans at Wembley couldn’t help but create such an atmosphere. But there was no way that would have been sustained through the 80s and 90s, even if Wembley was still the venue. The sport really needed a big change if it was going to survive.

That change came about with the Grand Prix and I absolutely agree with those that say that it is a much fairer way of finding the best rider in the world over a whole season. Of course, there have been times, as I mentioned above, when some riders have been unlucky with injury and maybe should have won, Jason Doyle and Leon Madsen to name two, not to mention running out of fuel like Jason Crump! But I agree that was far more likely to happen under the old one-off than in a whole series.

As for the riders themselves, as others have said, I always think it difficult to pitch different era riders against each other. No-one would question that watching riders like Zmarzlik, Doyle, Sayfutdinov, Lindgren, Pedersen and yes, Gollob (let’s not forget him) is what speedway is all about and why we love it. But so was watching riders like Briggs, Fundin, Craven, Harrfeldt, Lofqvist and others from the 60s era, who were no less thrilling and spectacular.

Speedway has always had its thrill merchants. Of course I never saw them but when you read about the exploits of the likes of Vic Huxley, Billy Lamont, Tom Farndon, George Newton from before the War, this has always been the case (as an example, click on my avatar photo of Lamont and Huxley!).

So, to sum up, I do think the introduction of the Grand Prix was the right thing to do at the right time, but I do not agree that it has produced more thrilling and spectacular riders. They have always been around.

Edited August 31, 2021 by norbold

[steve roberts]

2 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

My point exactly...which is why I can't understand the amount of negativity on this forum.

I could watch Zmarzlik, Gollob, (let's not forget him), Collins, Gundersen and others, just going round the track on their own.

Personally I would rather watch the world's most boring speedway match than the world's most exciting football match.

Speedway is intoxicating and has magical elements found in no other sport.

And, Norbold, given the amount of persausive recollections by yourself and others, I fully accept that Peter Craven was a spectacular rider and you were indeed fortunate to see him ride!

I will be at Belle Vue next month for the PC memorial Trophy.

 

Agree 100%. I used to watch highlights of American Football when it was first transmitted on Channel 4 back in the eighties and enjoyed it. However having witnessed two live matches at Wembley it left me totally nonplussed...too much off the field "entertainment" and/or distractions and people complain about the length of time it takes to complete a speedway meeting! I agree that speedway when presented right is the most spectacular of sports but as I keep saying there has to be more than just fifteen heats of racing in my opinion.

Edited August 31, 2021 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

2 hours ago, norbold said:

I haven't really commented on the substance of this topic, nor answered the original question, so here goes....

I was, of course, brought up in the era of The Big Five and have followed speedway ever since. I have to admit I did lose interest in the 80s and 90s, though I still managed to get along to some meetings at Ipswich and followed the sport in the Speedway Star, so what I have to say, may be a bit unfair on that era. But, I do feel that speedway lost its way a bit during that period, which is maybe why I lost interest.

I think there is no doubt that the Grand Prix revived a flagging sport and gave it back some oomph. There is also no doubt that the old one-off finals at Wembley were magical occasions and the atmosphere was just incredible. 80,000 fans at Wembley couldn’t help but create such an atmosphere. But there was no way that would have been sustained through the 80s and 90s, even if Wembley was still the venue. The sport really needed a big change if it was going to survive.

That change came about with the Grand Prix and I absolutely agree with those that say that it is a much fairer way of finding the best rider in the world over a whole season. Of course, there have been times, as I mentioned above, when some riders have been unlucky with injury and maybe should have won, Jason Doyle and Leon Madsen to name two, not to mention running out of fuel like Jason Crump! But I agree that was far more likely to happen under the old one-off than in a whole series.

As for the riders themselves, as others have said, I always think it difficult to pitch different era riders against each other. No-one would question that watching riders like Zmarzlik, Doyle, Sayfutdinov, Lindgren, Pedersen and yes, Gollob (let’s not forget him) is what speedway is all about and why we love it. But so was watching riders like Briggs, Fundin, Craven, Harrfeldt, Lofqvist and others from the 60s era, who were no less thrilling and spectacular.

Speedway has always had its thrill merchants. Of course I never saw them but when you read about the exploits of the likes of Vic Huxley, Billy Lamont, Tom Farndon, George Newton from before the War, this has always been the case (as an example, click on my avatar photo of Lamont and Huxley!).

So, to sum up, I do think the introduction of the Grand Prix was the right thing to do at the right time, but I do not agree that it has produced more thrilling and spectacular riders. They have always been around.

Great post and agree with everything here, and yes at the time i was not happy with the one off final being kicked into touch.But I realise now it was the right thing to do and now i watch every GP do i enjoy every one of them NO.But being honest with myself i did see plenty of dross in yesteryear as well so nothing has really changed in that respect.Your point of entertaining riders is totally spot on,  they have always been there, ( ie) a few come to mind Nigel B , Lofqvist, B.Thomas, Hitch, Gollob,( endless others as well).

[fatface]

3 hours ago, norbold said:

 I have to admit I did lose interest in the 80s and 90s, though I still managed to get along to some meetings at Ipswich and followed the sport in the Speedway Star, so what I have to say, may be a bit unfair on that era. But, I do feel that speedway lost its way a bit during that period, which is maybe why I lost interest.

Easy. That's my era you are talking about there! 

Seriously though, as much as I was into the sport then, I'd be kidding myself that the sport didn't fall behind badly in that period. Some of it bad luck, some of it external factors, but plenty of it through poor management and lack of foresight. The 80s started with a host of household names....PC, Mauger, Olsen, Lee, Carter, Penhall, World Finals in front of packed crowds at Wembley, Gothenburg, regular terrestrial tv coverage, national media interest and some iconic stadiums like Hyde Road and Plough Lane. By the late 80s/early 90s all of that was gone.

[chunky]

3 hours ago, norbold said:

That change came about with the Grand Prix and I absolutely agree with those that say that it is a much fairer way of finding the best rider in the world over a whole season.

So, to sum up, I do think the introduction of the Grand Prix was the right thing to do at the right time, but I do not agree that it has produced more thrilling and spectacular riders. They have always been around.

Your first point is one that a lot of fans seem to forget. They just want something that pleases and excites them, but what about the competitors? They are the ones out there doing it, and they certainly deserve a system that is fair - which the GP is.

I'm not sure that anyone has claimed that the GP's have "produced" more spectacular riders, but simply state that Zmarzlik is perhaps the craziest rider of all time!

[coventry1963]

Watching a sawdust laden, soaking wet track in the 70s was not conducive to anything other than processional, spread out "racing". Been a fan since early 1960s and there has always been good and bad races and meetings. Rose coloured spectacles apart, thrill merchants have always been around and not always the big names!

With regard to Peter Craven, I was taken by my father to one of my first meetings at Brandon because Peter Craven was riding and I can still see him in my mind's eye, my father pointing him out, entering the turns after the first lap with his foot still up on the footrest! In 50+ years, I have never seen that since so comments about "the wizard of balance" have more than a casual basis.

With regard to comparing eras, I was very fortunate that my grandfather grew up with Jack Parker and Jack used to visit our house in his later years. He always said that the top guys from every era would have adapted and been at or close to the top in any other era. Jack, with a smile, always said he would still have been the best in any era!

[waiheke1]

23 hours ago, chunky said:

That is a point I have repeatedly made on here. I think in some of the following years, there were several finals that were equally weak.

Let's face it, in the 80s of the five continental qualifiers, only Muller was close to world class.  So you were guaranteed at least quarter of the field would not be competitive.

Additionally, every workd final of that era - except 81- was arguably missing at least one genuine title contender due to injury, one poor meeting etc 

And of course by mid-late 80s the sport had prematurely lost a number of riders who should have been at their peak- penhall, sigalos, sanders, carter, lee etc.

What a line up you could have had, without those losses and with a fairer system; Lee, Carter, Wigg, Tatum, Nielsen  Gundersen, Knudsen, Pedersen, Sigalos, Penhall, Ermolenko, Moran, Moran, Jonsson, Muller, Sanders  as an example.

Have to add, this is a superb thread; rational discussion and great memories.

[norbold]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

 

I'm not sure that anyone has claimed that the GP's have "produced" more spectacular riders, but simply state that Zmarzlik is perhaps the craziest rider of all time!

Did you ever see Christer Lofqvist?